Renegotiating w/Client & determining what competition will pay for #1/49M on G

I have a client who is #1 out of 49M on G for a specific "industry city-of-client" phrase for a service industry that charges $3k-6k per job.

Client initially negotiated me into taking a % of sales commission but I don't really trust the bookkeeping. I wanted a fee based on G ranking and traffic but he wanted a different deal. I suck at hardball negotiating.

I'm averaging about $350/mo from him with an occasional $500-600 month and I feel this is chump change. I think this Lexus-driving client could easily afford $1k/mo.

The contract is expiring within a month and I'm considering finding out what my services are worth to his competition.

Current Yahoo/Overture bids are $2.34 for a 5th place click to $3.02 for a 1st place click if you exclude the city and $1 to $2 for the same range per click if you include the city.

Client is getting 110 visitors a day (again it's a big ticket item, so ), up double from when I started.

Any SEO professionals have successful methods for dangling one's success to an ex-clients competitors? I'd love to do better as a free agent to a more appreciative client.

Site is also #2/940k on Y and #10/260k on MSN, and I do little to optimize for those.

All rankings are natural.

I think I'm underpaid and would like to fix that.

If you have to do lots of work to hold those rankings above a gang of hungry competitors then you might be well served to ask for more money. If he shops around then he might see that you were a bargain. Hopefully he is treating you honestly.

You can also tell him that you are now charging for positions held rather than percentage of sales. Which is fair in different ways. Let's say you get somebody TopSERPs and they charge double the going rate in a biz area where buyers shop around. You will not make much money. Or maybe he has out of date product or bad reputation. Then holding him at TopSERPs will not make you the same as if you did that job for the competition.

However, if you don't do much work or expense to hold his rankings then you might chalk it up to experience and enjoy the easy money.

Well from personal experience "commission" is the way to go.

Course that also implies you can perform - and based on what you are reporting [ranked position compared to # of pages the words of the term appears on is meaningless]... note here: Winter Tires - a site about winter tires will be part of the number and so will a page the reads "my dad tires easily in the winter" - the latter has little to do with your abilities to "out rank it" - correct?

I would think if "underpaid" is your worry - rank them better and on more terms, increase visitation - additionally start looking at ways to assist in creating higher visitor : sales ratio that will fix your "pay imbalance".

On the other hand - if you simply wish to "back off" the workload while still generating revenue I doubt the client will keep you around. [which I read this in your post e.g. work less/make more since the suggested "commission" doesn't have an upper limit].

Be mindful that business folks understand profitability - if they start making 'less' or even 'stagnant' you are gone and then making nothing.

FIXED INCOME reads like a guarantee - no matter how badly the client does "you are guaranteed your pay"... that doesn't sound much like a person getting paid "what they're worth".

Work harder, work more, be innovative, and expand their horizons and your pay goes up - does it not?

<CAVEAT>On all commission contracts you should have access to merchant services and provided accounting spreadsheets: thus if they must hide sales from you - they must do "alot of extra work on their own".

One further note: [on the plus side] create targets to aim for with paid bonsuses - clients "USUALLY" go for this as THANKS for a job well done to a valued member of their outsourcing team - as they can easily appreciate that the effort you put in when there is a known target in advance - it sure beats the hell out of haggling over a few hundred dollars [but be realistic on both sides - your abilities to perform and their abilities to determine 'if' we reach that "new level" it would be well worth paying for it]

... I make more on one bonus than all previous fixed income contracts combined</CAVEAT>

I've seen email forms to the client with complaints. I also don't have 3rd party transparency on the commissions. The site is there to trigger a phone call for the company to close the deal which is, again, for a $3000-and-up service.

I don't want to have to go in to the office to spend an hour with their accountant to verify their books.

For the sake of discussion, let's call this "chicago plumbing". If I'm doing the equivalent of providing the #1 G ranking out of 49M pages for that, it's a web equivalent of having 30 seconds in Chicago for local advertising during the Super Bowl. If the client decides to put up a sock puppet during that 30 second slot, it's not the medium's fault for the lack of sales.

Does the broadcaster have a stake in the advertiser's profits? Should the broadcaster have to have an independent accounting agency audit the advertiser?

Discloser does not mean "visit" or even needing continuous reconciling... it means "trust" in that in any given situation you can have access.

In my particular case: commission SEO based sales all across North America, Peru, UK, China, Singapore, and Australia... I can request/view at any time.




No & No - the broadcaster does not have a stake in the advertisers profits - you are however not the broadcaster - in this specific instance "Google would be".

I'm not suggesting you are wrong - I am merely pointing out based only on the information you provided that you are currently engaged in the best model for your own profitability.

What you don't say is equally important:

• what is wrong with generating more terms to rank?
• what is wrong with generating more visits?
• what is wrong with generating more leads?
• what is wrong with generating a higher visitor : sales ratio?
• what is wrong with adding targets for bonuses?

You sound as if none of these improve your profitability.

You should NOT backpeddle on a contract e.g. it sounds as if you are quite happy with the results you have develop thus far and not intending to improve upon but manage the status quo... honestly if a service provider was suggesting this to you would you gladly pay more for the same?

You may not be happy with the deal you brokered - welcome to the club. Save that piece of insight for the next client.

The key to client management is forward thinking not stagnation. Sweeten the deal by improving their profits and you sweeten the relationship.

If they are indeed generating volumes of profit and paying you little for that - there is opportunity in that model you only need a little innovation and you can hit this out of the park and be generating $5K+ rather than your suggested $1K which [noting from the clients position on the latter] is a net loss.

Any hints on approaching competitors?

Given that PPC on Y! are from $1 (5th place) to $3 (1st place), 100 clicks a day works out to $100 at the low end.

A competitor might be interested in an offer of natural rankings at 25 cents on that Yahoo dollar, no?

$25/day for my services x 30 days a month = $750.
12 months at that is $9k/yr.

$9k/yr is roughly the profits on 4-5 jobs. If web marketing can't justify this, web marketing probably shouldn't be part of the client's strategy, I think.

Contract expires soon. I'd like to have a good "free agent" argument.

It's bad enough for the Lakers to lose Shaq. But to have Shaq oppose them on the court hurts a lot more.

Take a look at the Lakers post-Shaq.

Sure the name of the game is all about profit. A single SEO can only manage so many clients competently so the general idea once you are entrenched in a specific industry - dump low price strategies in favor of higher price ones.

But there are always tradeoffs.

1. kiss your current client goodbye

2. two clients working to achieve a common goal is better than one going alone [sharing data improves conversions] - but you must be an honest "unbias" broker.

3. no guarantees that a competitor will see value in you [more than the previous one] so be careful what you wish for.



I think you are missing the point I am trying to make. If the current client is highly profitable with you [and you don't believe your current profit margin is desirable] - expand their horizons so that they continue to become more profitable and you can get more of the pie.

You didn't address my previous question which is extremely important to you:



If you are not willing to raise the bar - your client isn't likely to raise the pay and the reverse - keeping a current paying client happy is far easier than getting a new to trust you.

It is extremely important to realize - the relationship is much more valuable than merely viewing month to month or year to year fees.