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    Link Equity Questions


    Well, I've never really spent any time learning about anything related to links, I've decided that it's time I at least learn the basics about how they function etc. So expect some daft questions over the next few weeks.


    My questions:

    1. Is what I have plotted out for examples 1-3 correct? (I know % passed is just a guess)
    2. With the 2 hop redirect, if the http:\\www. mysite.com (\ wrong way as to not link) had https version as a canonical, would the same link equity still be passed?
    3. The forth column is the one that is causing me the most confusion, is this something that reduces the amount of internal link equity?
    4. Same as the second question, if link equity is lost, if it were a canonical would the same amount still be passed?
    5. Are there any useful resources that answer a lot of these kind of questions?


    Appreciate any help with these questions.
    Last edited by ThomasHarvey; Aug 4th, 2015 at 10:32 AM.
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  3. Dinosaur
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    Old post but relevant to your question 4 maybe Link Juice: Want More? Here's an Easy Way to Get It for SEO | Wordstream
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  5. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Is what I have plotted out for examples 1-3 correct? (I know % passed is just a guess)
    There are certain parameters that are not guesses.

    You generally lose/gain a PR level with 9 links passing level above or below (less than 10 a little bit more than 9).

    9X PR4 link will generate a PR5 page, the same is true for all level above and below and the reverse is equally true... a PR7 page with 9 links on it will produce 9 PR6 pages. In general most web pages have at least 25 links. However, 81 links will drop PageRank down 2 levels for all of the 81 links. Course as you go higher in the scale the difference between PR7 to PR6 is massive when comparing to PR1 to PR2.

    Google changes things all the time but since I actively retired from doing SEO myself in 2006 this trend has been quite consistent.

    Another fact, the PageRank of a page will mathematically influence 22 pages (via hops or link generations) down a continuous path but the first 4 are all above 50% (or 85%, 72%, 61%, 52%) which generally covers most of your website if you focus your effort from your blog.

    FACT: Organic results are for editorial results no matter how much you want shopping cart pages to rank they don't deserve links from other websites so focus on what pages can get links then have those pages link to the pages you want to rank.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    With the 2 hop redirect, if the http:\\www. mysite.com (\ wrong way as to not link) had https version as a canonical, would the same link equity still be passed?
    http and https are the same things so technically not a canonical issue. Being secure or being un-secure generally isn't a ranking issue no matter how much Google wants to pitch that it is. They want their searchers to be protected so if a little fibbing helps that cause it is worth it. RIGHT?

    I have a couple of months to get https : // mbglow(dot)com well ranked then I will pull the SSL from https and make the checkout pages secure but since they are not indexed my complete website should (according to all the talking heads) drop like a rock.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    The forth column is the one that is causing me the most confusion, is this something that reduces the amount of internal link equity?
    Not sure what you are driving at... rephrase?

    To use an analogy the "s" is merely you now wearing a raincoat where "no s" was you in a t-shirt... nothing changed other than you are or are not protected from the rain. PageRank is not impacted by the SSL.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Same as the second question, if link equity is lost, if it were a canonical would the same amount still be passed?
    I hope I was correct on what your confusion was. If not, can answer this either.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Are there any useful resources that answer a lot of these kind of questions?
    A very strong understanding of math is KEY or 18 years of ****ing around with links.

    I'm disappointed Cheddars... you got a great deal of the theory in our private talk a few months back. GraceLoveSEO got trained and 2 weeks later produced impressive results for a website in a week.

    It's rare, but it happens.
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  7. Dinosaur
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    'm disappointed Cheddars... you got a great deal of the theory in our private talk a few months back. GraceLoveSEO got trained and 2 weeks later produced impressive results for a website in a week.
    No idea why your disappointed with me. I simply saw the thread and thought the post regarding internal linking may help in the guys quest for knowledge. I was only on-line here for a few minutes yesterday hence not a longer reply. However seeing as the topic was regarding links I guessed you would be along sooner rather than later to give chapter and verse as the resident expert on links.

    I give the floor to you Fathom its your topic of expertise.

    Comments on this post

    • ThomasHarvey agrees : Appreciate the article.
    • fathom agrees : Would have thought a guy that does experiences would attempt to prove or disprove what they learned.... I do!
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  9. Super Moderator
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    First of all before I try and respond to it all. I really appreciate the detailed response.


    Originally Posted by fathom
    You generally lose/gain a PR level with 9 links passing level above or below (less than 10 a little bit more than 9).

    9X PR4 link will generate a PR5 page, the same is true for all level above and below and the reverse is equally true... a PR7 page with 9 links on it will produce 9 PR6 pages. In general most web pages have at least 25 links. However, 81 links will drop PageRank down 2 levels for all of the 81 links. Course as you go higher in the scale the difference between PR7 to PR6 is massive when comparing to PR1 to PR2.
    Is this the case for both internal and external links?

    Ok, so putting this into a practical example. On an eCommerce website that has a large category structure take John Lewis for example (johnlewis.com) then these links that are within the menu of the page should have a relatively low pagerank passed to them from the homepage, however theses links being on every page should lead to them being passed a larger amount?

    So there seems to be 487 internal links on the page. With 50 of them being to the homepage (language/currency selectors etc). So that's 437 links to other pages within the website. From what you said 81 will drop the PageRank down by two levels, does this mean that to drop down three levels it would be 729 links? (9x9x9)


    Originally Posted by fathom
    Another fact, the PageRank of a page will mathematically influence 22 pages (via hops or link generations) down a continuous path but the first 4 are all above 50% (or 85%, 72%, 61%, 52%) which generally covers most of your website if you focus your effort from your blog.
    Are you able to expand upon this section?



    Originally Posted by fathom
    FACT: Organic results are for editorial results no matter how much you want shopping cart pages to rank they don't deserve links from other websites so focus on what pages can get links then have those pages link to the pages you want to rank.
    Completely agree, whenever talking with people about ranking I always ask them "Why should Google show this page above someone else?". It's all about providing the best experience for the customer.

    Originally Posted by fathom
    http and https are the same things so technically not a canonical issue. Being secure or being un-secure generally isn't a ranking issue no matter how much Google wants to pitch that it is. They want their searchers to be protected so if a little fibbing helps that cause it is worth it. RIGHT?

    Well, I was more just using this as an example of two pages with the same content.
    So using john lewis as an example again. (not real situations just using it as a domain example)

    johnlewis.com/faq (oldurl, still found in older areas of the site)

    johnlewis.com/frequently-asked-questions (new url)



    Now obvious best practice would be to 301 these pages so the new url is displayed. But if the canonical of the /faq page were set as /frequently-asked-questions would this have the same effect as it being 301? This also brings the question, would this be better for PR to have this as a direct link?





    Originally Posted by fathom
    Not sure what you are driving at... rephrase?
    My question is, does having these 301s in place lose any potential link value?

    I'll use another as an example:


    www.olddomain.com
    to
    olddomain.com
    to
    www.newdomain.pl

    Would the better situation be

    www.olddomain.com
    to
    www.newdomain.pl

    Are there any numbers here that would work?

    --


    Using an example from a site i'm working on. This is what's really brought a lot of this link things up (both internal and external)

    We have a category page that has filters and breadcrumbs. The canonical is set to the category page.

    So this page the category filter uses different urls and the breadrumbs too.

    Category filter:
    /categorygridview.aspx?fh_view=lister&fh_location=% 2f%2%2fen_gb%2fcategories@lt;%7b8533%7d%2fcategori es@lt;%7b10198%7d&fh_usertype=category&fh_maxdispl aynrvalues_brand
    which redirects to
    /categorygridview?fh_view=lister&fh_location=%2f%2% 2fen_gb%2fcategories@lt;%7b8533%7d%2fcategories@lt ;%7b10198%7d&fh_usertype=category&fh_maxdisplaynrv alues_brand
    this is just removing the .aspx.
    with canonical set to:
    /category/sub+category

    Breadcrumbs:
    /CategoryGridView.aspx?fh_location=%2f%2fcre%2fen_G B%2fcategories@lt;%7bcre_8533%7d
    redirecting to
    /CategoryGridView?fh_location=%2f%2fcre%2fen_GB%2fc ategories@lt;%7bcre_8533%7d
    with canonical set to:
    /category

    if these were set to their urls without the redirects, would these pages rank better? (excluding everything else).

    Originally Posted by fathom
    A very strong understanding of math is KEY or 18 years of ****ing around with links.
    I'd have been two if I started messing around with links 18 years ago!





    Hope what i've said about does make sense.
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  11. rod@missionop.com
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    Will break this down into unique posts.

    Googlebot cannot tell the difference between an external link vs an internal one. A link, is a link, is a link. So your opening question is moot. PageRank flow continuously down all accessible paths.

    The only difference between internal vs external vouching for yourself starts with a very finite amount of actual PageRank and merely passing only that around your domain is like have a full course meal for a family of infinitive relations but all everyone brought the the feast were crumbs. No one will get fat and everyone will starve.

    So to say (I'm suggesting) you don't need any external links is RUBBISH but Matt Cutts is quite correct OBSESSING ABOUT PAGERANK IS NOT NEEDED. you only need a little and then your internal links do all the heavy lifting.

    While some might say I'm webspamming I generally point 8 expired domains to a website and the internal links do all the ranking. 8 reciprocal links is not webspam, 8 directory links are not webspam, 8 guess blogging posts are not webspam, and 8 paid links while the intent is clear is not detectable webspam that Googlebot (actually PENGUIN) will worry about.
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  13. rod@missionop.com
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    Can't break this post up easily on my iPad will respond when get home.
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    Originally Posted by fathom
    Will break this down into unique posts.

    Googlebot cannot tell the difference between an external link vs an internal one. A link, is a link, is a link. So your opening question is moot. PageRank flow continuously down all accessible paths.

    The only difference between internal vs external vouching for yourself starts with a very finite amount of actual PageRank and merely passing only that around your domain is like have a full course meal for a family of infinitive relations but all everyone brought the the feast were crumbs. No one will get fat and everyone will starve.

    So to say (I'm suggesting) you don't need any external links is RUBBISH but Matt Cutts is quite correct OBSESSING ABOUT PAGERANK IS NOT NEEDED. you only need a little and then your internal links do all the heavy lifting.

    While some might say I'm webspamming I generally point 8 expired domains to a website and the internal links do all the ranking. 8 reciprocal links is not webspam, 8 directory links are not webspam, 8 guess blogging posts are not webspam, and 8 paid links while the intent is clear is not detectable webspam that Googlebot (actually PENGUIN) will worry about.
    Alright that all makes sense, so the internal 301 redirects are harming the website?
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  17. rod@missionop.com
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    Harming NO just not helping.
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  19. Super Moderator
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    Originally Posted by fathom
    Harming NO just not helping.
    So there would be a benefit to getting the redirects sorted?
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  21. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Ok, so putting this into a practical example. On an eCommerce website that has a large category structure take John Lewis for example (johnlewis.com) then these links that are within the menu of the page should have a relatively low pagerank passed to them from the homepage, however theses links being on every page should lead to them being passed a larger amount?

    So there seems to be 487 internal links on the page. With 50 of them being to the homepage (language/currency selectors etc). So that's 437 links to other pages within the website. From what you said 81 will drop the PageRank down by two levels, does this mean that to drop down three levels it would be 729 links? (9x9x9)
    Sounds about right.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Are you able to expand upon this section?
    Not really. I could write a 1000 pages on this subject but I can't mind read what you don't understand. Explain what part you are having a problem with? If you can't do that... You make for a lousy SEO... at least from a PageRank vantagepoint.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Completely agree, whenever talking with people about ranking I always ask them "Why should Google show this page above someone else?". It's all about providing the best experience for the customer.

    Well, I was more just using this as an example of two pages with the same content.

    So using john lewis as an example again. (not real situations just using it as a domain example)
    One problem... Hypotheticals work great on paper but suck in practices... So I avoid commenting on hypotheticals.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Now obvious best practice would be to 301 these pages so the new url is displayed. But if the canonical of the /faq page were set as /frequently-asked-questions would this have the same effect as it being 301? This also brings the question, would this be better for PR to have this as a direct link?
    In practice... If a page has zero external links to it you gain NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by redirecting it.

    In practice... If you have used the canonical tag no canonical will have links to it due to Google ranking that page.

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    My question is, does having these 301s in place lose any potential link value?
    if the value is 0 how much can you lose?

    Originally Posted by ThomasHarvey
    Using an example from a site i'm working on. This is what's really brought a lot of this link things up (both internal and external)

    We have a category page that has filters and breadcrumbs. The canonical is set to the category page
    So this page the category filter uses different urls and the breadrumbs too.

    if these were set to their urls without the redirects, would these pages rank better? (excluding everything else).
    You are getting too deep into this. If there is a single EXTERNAL link pointing to the page... And you can see that in GSC... then there might be a reason to redirect.

    If no EXTERNAL links then simply do a custom 404 page and forget about any redirects.
    Last edited by fathom; Aug 6th, 2015 at 11:04 AM.
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  23. rod@missionop.com
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    I want to point out that PageRank starts at 0.000000000000000000000000000001 rounded off.

    When you redirect website pages... ALL it is clear nothing internal links to this specific page... anymore.

    Even when other internal pages point to this page is it better to change the link to elsewhere than waste effort trying to re-capture 85% of 0.000000000000000000000000000001 rounding off.

    In GSC if the page in question does not appear under the tab LINKS TO MY SITE in the right column ignore it... Even the termporary traffic loses for maybe a week isn't going to break the bank.
    Last edited by fathom; Aug 6th, 2015 at 11:17 AM.

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