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    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    What do you think, troops?
    You'll get more response if Instead of pontificating, you summarize thoughts and ideas.
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    The above IS a summary of my thoughts.

    I don't expect much response because I don't expect many people are willing to consider the consequences of the simplistic answers they desire.

    Google has said it uses 10,000 ranking signals. How stupid is an SEO discussion of one factor that so far, no one can actually confirm exists and which logic and prior info seems to blow out of the water?

    The trouble with today's world is that it wants simple answers where none exist!

    More importantly, what are your responses to the issues I raise? If you are not prepared to consider them, what does this say about your SEO knowledge, attitude and commitment to this discussion?

    I'd be delighted to read your considered response.

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    Last edited by JohnAimit; Apr 28th, 2017 at 06:17 AM.
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    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    I don't expect much response because I don't expect many people are willing to consider the consequences of the simplistic answers they desire.
    Yes, we're all simple

    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    More importantly, what are your responses to the issues I raise? If you are not prepared to consider them, what does this say about your SEO knowledge, attitude and commitment to this discussion?
    You got me there, I know nothing of online marketing and I am not committed to this forum.

    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    How stupid is an SEO discussion of one factor that so far, no one can actually confirm exists and which logic and prior info seems to blow out of the water?
    Frankly, I was rather enjoying the discussion, I don't think it's stupid at all. Confused though, do you do understand that this is a forum about SEO where the main topics of discussion are individual ranking factors? Please let me ask: why would you write 6 (so far) extremely lengthy posts on a subject you think is stupid? Seems odd...

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    Last edited by KernelPanic; Apr 28th, 2017 at 06:20 AM.
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    Hi KernelPanic,
    Actually, this is an SEO discussion about CTR as an individual ranking factor.

    I write long posts because G's algo is a complex issue.

    I've tried to simplify the arguments by breaking them down into various posts based on:

    • G's answers and position
    • Videos with very experienced SEOs who are pro and anti the position
    • Logic arguments based on what I'd expect experienced SEOs to understand

    If you disagree with the proposition, how about you give us at least one reason why?

    So far all we have from you is a statement that because CTR is part of G's paid algorithm then you believe it must be part of its generic algorithm. No G substantiation, no logic and no authoritative SEO support offered. IMHO, that is way less than a slim offering.

    It seems all you want to do is attack me and misquote me in your endeavours! I don't care about that. Just give us a single, substantive something to provide weight to your position that CTR is a G ranking factor.

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    Last edited by JohnAimit; Apr 28th, 2017 at 07:43 AM.
  8. #35
  9. Dinosaur
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    I don't expect much response because I don't expect many people are willing to consider the consequences of the simplistic answers they desire.
    Well being a coder I have to break down complex problems into small manageable chunks so bringing order to chaos so to speak.

    As I said earlier in the post, when I first heard that CTR may have an influence on SERPS I was sceptical so set about to test it. Despite my best efforts I could not budge a ranking but significantly increased CTR and lowered bounce rate. It was my option that CTR for organic search was a SEO myth and had no merit.

    Of course I could be wrong and my test was flawed but until someone can show me something different with a proper test I will continue to assume its nothing more than hype floated around by some so called SEO experts to gain eyeballs to their blogs.

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    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    So far all we have from you is a statement that because CTR is part of G's paid algorithm then you believe it must be part of its generic algorithm. No G substantiation, no logic and no authoritative SEO support offered. IMHO, that is way less than a slim offering.
    I agree, honestly I have no proof that CTR is or isn't a ranking factor so I added what I had then sat back to learn what others here thought. I just briefly surmised thinking my addition will offer evidence that Google does indeed deem CTR important.

    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    It seems all you want to do is attack me
    Sorry that you feel that way, I wasn't trying to attack you, just offering a suggestion on how to get people to read your posts. You're very well spoken but your posts are really long (and a bit long winded).

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    John, like KernelPanic said "no proof that CTR is or isn't a ranking factor" I agree with this statement. I am in this industry from more than 10 yrs, and I have noticed when I run a PPC campaign and if their CTR is good then many times their organic results influenced that might be another that i wouldn't captured that part but if that would be happened one to two times then i understand that could be another reasons but that happened on the several occasions, so I believe on it somehow. It sounds like i am not more technical experts than you guys i accept this. This is my own observation and u r free to disagree with me.

    John, Kernal Penic is very helpful members here from a long time and i always learn from him but u understood his reply in another way. At this situation I remember Fathom who was the most helpful poster than anyone else, when I joined this forum I have flamed many times from him but finally I resized actually he was not attacking me actually he was replying on my posts nothing personal. I hope u understand this.....

    BTW I like your posts and most of time i read ur posts it souds like ur hv done good job in ur Seoing and I hope u will stick around and we will get more insightfull in future.

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    Last edited by Prof.stan; Apr 28th, 2017 at 09:26 AM.
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    For some reason the forum quote function is not working for me. I've seen other people report the same...

    To KernelPanic,

    "why would you write 6 (so far) extremely lengthy posts on a subject you think is stupid? Seems odd... "

    You will see that most of my posts are answering questions posed by other readers - including your own requests for more info/explanation.

    I don't think the original post is stupid. I'm respecting the poster and question by investing a bunch of my time in trying to establish where I believe credibility for the proposition lies.

    To date and IMHO, I think the belief in CTR as a ranking signal is unsubstantiated and so far no one has offered any good info or logic to the contrary.

    The trouble with the argument that "you can't believe Google" is folk who hold this view won't know when G announces major changes that could turn the SEO industry's implementation upside down. Eg.

    28 Apr 17: "Google launched more than 1,600 new changes in search last year"
    Author, Barry Schwartz, Search Engine Land

    "Google revamped its How Search Works site..."

    If folk do believe G, then this statement and its included link may be some of the most important SEO info you will read this year:

    Think through the consequences of how G says its search function now works and some folk could find themselves rethinking large parts of their SEO, starting with what value is there in targeting frequently used keywords?

    PS: Prof Stan,
    Thank you for your comments. I've got a little more SEO time under my belt than you and that has taught me caution, if nothing else.

    With respect, I don't believe any of us can look at our miniscule corners of the web and draw hard conclusions from our site traffic stats. With 10,000 G ranking factors, 1,600 algo changes per year and billions of pages of old, new and changed content being made, the crystal ball is way too murky.

    I could look at one site with 83% generic SE referrals over 10 years and deduce that its SE referrals are influenced by its old age, lack of content changes, fast load speed, lack of mobile page versions, page length of 50 words and hosting on an Australian server are important ranking factors. That same site would suggest that external links are a negative ranking factor.

    Another site would suggest totally different factors are important.

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    Last edited by JohnAimit; Apr 30th, 2017 at 02:42 AM.
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    Originally Posted by JohnAimit
    I don't believe any of us can look at our miniscule corners of the web and draw hard conclusions from our site traffic stats.
    Sorry dude not picking on you but the very job description of a professional online marketing person is to draw hard conclusions from our site traffic stats and determine action items based on our findings. (not watch videos)
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    Thank you for your comments. I've got a little more SEO time under my belt than you that has taught me caution, if nothing else.
    I am not commenting on anyone but just sharing my own experiences that I have learned or understood with my or client sites till now. Also, I never claim that I am more technical than you guys but still as per my findings I must say organic searches could be influenced by CTR somehow and you guys are free to disagree with me

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    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    Sorry dude not picking on you but the very job description of a professional online marketing person is to draw hard conclusions from our site traffic stats and determine action items based on our findings. (not watch videos)
    It's also their job to know the limits of the data they are viewing and how this constrains the conclusions they may then draw.

    I've offered a long list of factors that can/will impact on all manner of algo ranking conclusions that you may make.

    I can't make you read them or believe the interference they will cause to your conclusions.

    Not much point in continuing this, is there?

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    Great thread but perhaps its not the answers that are wrong, it is the question.

    Why does it matter if CTR is a ranking factor or not, it should be part of any SEO practitioners work alongside goal conversion. I've never had a client say "OK, our sales have doubled because of the work you did but our rankings are still the same so lets end the contract because that wasn't SEO in the strictest terms"

    CTR and goal conversion is often a stop gap improvement we can hand to clients while working on overall ranking improvements.

    Is there any point pushing vast resources into a test that would conclusively answer the question "Is CTR a ranking factor": No, for two reasons:
    - You should be working on it anyway for the clients general benefit
    - Google's algo might change tomorrow which would make all those test results garbage anyway.

    I'll hold my hand up and admit that I am a CTR believer but not at the expense of other activity. CTR is very often part of a clients true goals (False Goal: "I want to rank higher for keyword X", True Goal: "I want to generate more leads") so why try and isolate it .... ?

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  24. #43
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    CTR is a great measure to demonstrate to a client that you have done your job correctly, same as bounce rate, time on site etc
    Improvements on these should improve what ever the goals are for the client so being able to demonstrate that I can see as being of more importance than if it actually improves or downgrades SERPS.

    So I am in agreement with Doodled here on that point but I would love to see some evidence of an improvement in CTR corresponded to an improvement in SERPS.

    If it was the case that it was a strong signal then it would be very possible to selectively improve competitors sites to negatively attack a target site. After all if you can influence SERPS by external activity I am 100% sure the hackers of this world would have a field day taking out sites from SERPS.
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    CTR is a great measure to demonstrate to a client that you have done your job correctly, same as bounce rate, time on site
    I find in many of my markets that as my traffic gets more and more qualified as my fine tuning starts to work that my bounce rate and time on site actually get worse. All I want them to do is ring the clients phone, often when that happens we get a bounce, a 4 second visit and a conversion all in the same event!
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    Yeap, a lot depends on the goal, which is why if anything the CTR, bounce rate, time on site are really dirty signals.

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