The DMOZ Conundrum

I'm new to these forums and just had a chance to read through the posts here on DMOZ. I've had no success since August 2006 getting our site to be included in DMOZ, and it's led to my suspicions about editorial bias or competitor influence. Then I read a number of posts by cbp expressing shock that someone would submit a post such as "I finally got listed in DMOZ" or similar, and facetiously suggesting you "ask for refund" if you're unhappy with their service. And finally there are the discussions on why DMOZ matters (because every guide on SEO I've read says you need to get in it) and the general belief (expressed by others and I believe it) that DMOZ gets extremely little use except for SEO purpose.

It seems we have a conundrum. Why is something viewed as so important also viewed as irrelevant? Why does something free generate so much dissatisfaction?

All the above made me want to figure out why I and so many others have a negative reaction to DMOZ, the difficulty in getting listed and the attitude expressed by people who claim to represent DMOZ in some way. I think it is because of what the Open Directory Project claims to be. Have you looked at the "About the Open Directory Project" section of DMOZ lately? It's laugh out loud funny. I can't provide the link to the "About the ODP" (new forum members can't give URLs) but here are a few gems:

"The web continues to grow at staggering rates. Automated search engines are increasingly unable to turn up useful results to search queries." - Huh? What? My experience is that search engines such as Google are incredibly good and effective. Is there any evidence that search engines are increasingly unable to turn up useful results?

"The Open Directory was founded in the spirit of the Open Source movement" - Maybe it WAS but it sure doesn't feel open today. Do the sites that are not accepted get any feedback as to why - I mean given that a human editor has taken the trouble to review the site, why not at least provide brief feedback in some form to indicate what needs to be improved to make the web a better place? I've applied to be an editor, unsuccessfully, with no feedback as to why. Based on these forums, my experience is typical, not unusual.

"You Can Make a Difference - Like any community, you get what you give. The Open Directory provides the opportunity for everyone to contribute." - If by "contribute" they mean "suggest a site" then I guess there's an opportunity for everyone to contribute. Other than that, I doubt that the majority of people who have attempted to contribute feel as if they have had a real opportunity to contribute. I know that I don't.

By the way, my feedback here is provided free, so if you are unhappy with it, please don't ask for a refund.

DMOZ used to be important, but is less important nowadays. Of course, DMOZ still likes to think it's important. It's a clique of editors, most with good intentions, some with bad...

The good thing from an internet user's perspective is that they don't let everyone in. The bad thing from a SEO's perspective is that they don't let everyone in.

But tell me: have you done any recent searches where DMOZ - or even Google directory - showed on the first results page? Have you ever heard of anyone using a directory to search for stuff? Have you ever seen a DMOZ clone with Pagerank > 0 ?

Good points guys. I don't recall ever getting DMOZ as a search result. I would guess that most >95% of web users have never heard of DMOZ unless they have some interest in SEO. Just mho.

What about your editorial bias and ownership influence...

Could it not be your website simply doesn't add any additional value to the category?

The only bias an editor has (that you seemingly don't) their free time can be spent how they wish it... obviously you're so much more commited to giving to others that you have no free time... to volunteer -- right?

Dear Fathom,

It seems that any criticism of DMOZ results in an attack on the commentor. If you'll calm down and read my entire post you'll see that I HAVE volunteered to be an editor, and was not accepted (I guess, since I've not heard anything back from the "open" process).

It's interesting that you don't refute any of my factual points, just simply imply that there must be something wrong with me to be suspicious of bias. Since I don't know who the reviewer was, what their affiliation is, or even if the site was ever reviewed (since the DMOZ "open source" process doesn't provide any of that information) then really all I can do is be suspicous. Afterall, the editors in a category are likely to have the means, motive and opportunity to reject a competitor's site, and I see nothing in DMOZ where there is a process to protect this from happening. However I'm ready for you to educate me.

Hi - Every applicaton gets a reply - always - check your Junk folder - and remember depending on when you applied it could have been lost when DMOZ crashed last October time.

Editors dont have to even look into the submission que, submissions from the public are only another place to look for sites to list - its the job of an editor to actually surfe the web and find good websites, good websites dont have to be pretty to look at DMOZ arent the fashion police, sites need to be unique, no mirrored content, and if the site belongs to a parent site then its normal only the parent site that will get listed, i have two sites one is listed and the other cant be listed becuase its whats called as a "gateway" site to my main. So it maybe your site has one of many reasons why it hasnt been listed yet - let alone they may not be an active editor in your cat.

Regarding the editors - there are rotten eggs in a lot of baskets but most play by the book, they have to and DMOZ has the means to track editors who are not abiding by the rule's so dont worry about that.

Submissions can take years to get looked at - im still waiting after 12 months - the best advice is to "submit and forget" if you get in...so be it...if you dont then your not disappointed, i would focus your energy on building good content and make it unique and you will must likly end up getting listed one day, plus all the links you will get naturely.

For a volunteer organization to turn down your application suggests there was critical problems with it OR a collective of little things.

Since 3 Meta's must agree not to authorize privileges rules out the conspiracy of competitor influences.

If you haven't "heard anything" that means you application hasn't been reviewed or possibly a problem with the email address since all applications get a response.



Refute? You make conclusions based on lack of evidence as supported facts for some value of bias... My rebuttal is "you're not one bit interested in facts... you'd be happy with a listing in spite of the facts".



Your mixed feelings about a website listing and then an editor application - suggests your idea of openness is biased to your acceptance of either.

That only proves your lack of openness and honestly.



The same editors are not involved in the listing of your website and your editor application - as such maybe the same things are wrong with both.

The thing about "open" - if you openly have spelling mistakes, dead links, or some other unattractiveness with your website -- that prevents it from being listed... assuming you used that same domain as a sample of the quality editorship potential - that means you killed your chance of being an editor by the same means.

If you picked the wrong category for you editorship and then wanted to include your own domain in the wrong category - you just failed.

That's the problem with "website biases" you don't really care whether you follow any guidelines so long as you get the listing.

By your own admissions you're not really interested in being a voluntary editor you only want your domain listed... and these are the very people DMOZ doesn't want editing.

You are quite correct though -- editors in a category are likely to have the means, motive and opportunity to reject a competitor's site - but why do you want to join that type of organization?

Having the means, motive and opportunity - doesn't mean they will abuse those privileges - surely you would have that same means, motive and opportunity if you were an editor - so why wouldn't you have that bias -- where you suggest every other editor must be bias because you're not listed and not accepted?

Maybe that's why you're not an editor?

Dansk, thanks, by a reply do you mean the initial auto-generated confirmation message that something was submitted? Or is something sent after a site is reviewed. I think I've received auto-messages, but never anything else.

Also, don't mis-read my post - it wasn't to complain that we haven't been listed - that topic has been covered ad nauseum by many, many, many others. My point was to examine why DMOZ generates such a negative reaction from so many. I believe that DMOZ needs to change it's mission to reflect better what it actually is (not really that "open") or better police itself and adopt more best practices from the groups out there that really operate in open source mode.

And FYI, probably everyone thinks their site is great and worthy of listing so there's no point telling you about ours. All I can say is that we generate about 20 sales daily in a very competitive e-tailer market and have sales around $250K annually. That to me says the site has value.

The commercial value of your generated sales are not a requirement for DMOZ listing... I'm sure the Google Adwords team would be extremely interested in your generated income though.

Fathom, again you want to attack me instead of addressing my points. But let me address yours and give you the courtesy you refuse to me:

I receive the auto-generated emails so there's no problem with the address or spam filter

I am interested in facts - when will you offer some?

I have no mixed feelings about a website listing or being an editor. I'd like to do both. I write for a living, have created many websites and know my stuff. What's to reject? Is this the open directory or the clique directory?

If the same editors are involved in listings and in choosing editors (as I suspected) that's just an open door to abuse, isn't it? What's the DMOZ process for preventing that abuse?

There aren't that many guidelines and they are easy to follow - we followed them to the letter.

I don't know why you think I'm not interested in being an editor - I am. I also want to get my site listed. I applied for editorship in a category not related to my business.

I would be likely to have the same bias if I were allowed to be an editor in a category that is also my business. You're telling me that DMOZ allows that. YOU seem to be proving the point that there IS bias, while at the same time trying to deny it. Are you confused?

Fathom, you missed it again - the point of the sales figure is not it's usefulness to DMOZ, but it's validation of the value of our site. Thanks for asking.

What I don't understand is why you didn't go to DigitalPoint with your conundrum.

You missed your own point entirely... every scam site tends to make money and some make alot - how then does one use sales as a method for listing true value?

"I swear [hand on heart]... that the dollars we made... and the products and services we sold... meet DMOZ's quality control... for commercial gains... so help me God!"

STAMPED: ACCEPTED!

Fathom, apparently you have no facts to offer to strengthen your argument so you've had to resort to attacking me and our website. I'm not familiar with DigitalPoint - do you try to bully people there also?