[DavidAW]

Hi,

When doing SEO for Phyisicans, I find, as many people do, that there is no great keyword data because of the niche nature of the business.

What is the best approach for working in this situation? I can use, for example for a dermatologist who wants to rank her "Botox" page:

botox dermatologist islip ny
islip ny botox dermatiologist
botox doctor islip ny
islip ny botox doctor.

The best advice I've seen is to:

1) take the example keywords above and try to get a feel for the best keyword (popularity vs competition/AdWords Tools) and then use that one in the <title> tag and <h1>.

2) spread the other ones through out the text in a human-readable format.

3) track all four of the keywords to confirm/update the data.

4) Rinse and repeat for other specific procedure pages (facial peel doctor islip ny, etc)


What do others do in this situation?

Thanks!

[fathom]

Using only one example IF: botox dermatologist islip ny was the intended ranking phrase targeting exact match seems like a logical solution as you can generally develop ranks fairly quickly without much associated costs.

However, dermatology SEO customers do not desire ranks for a single phrase they want ranks a list of all potential synonyms, brands, and regional queries mixing and matching hundreds, thousands, or 10s of thousands of phrases because the usual traffic on any single phrase is 1 or 2 a day, or week, or month.

This forces you to deliver webspam because whitehat developments for a list of all potential synonyms, brands, and regional queries mixing and matching hundreds, thousands, or 10s of thousands of niche phrases on the off-chance they might make revenue from any one is specifically difference from guaranteed revenue from any one.

A better philosophy: A WEBPAGE IS WHAT IT IS UNTIL YOU MAKE IT SOMETHING ELSE!

Onpage stuff... target for exact matches
Offpage stuff... target for broad matches and
Watch Analytics for your niche topics to develop phrase matches

botox - single word link to a botox page
dermatologist - single word link to the about us page page
islip - get links for city specific resources
ny - get links for state (or national) specific resources

This mix and match approach while difficult to formulate a preplan for any specific phrase affords you to develop lesser competitive phrases quickly. Obviously, if you see in Analytics that someone typed in botox doctors in ny city islip and you search and see you are #9, 1 exact match link develop now will drive you to #1 and as value added you'll get new phrases botox doctor near nyc, islip islip botox dermatology ny state

... eventually you'll see alternative phrase patterns to develop like dermatology doc or doc for botox which affords your to develop the overall philosophy:

A WEBPAGE IS WHAT IT IS UNTIL YOU MAKE IT SOMETHING ELSE!...

or if you are getting lots of traffic on DOC and very few for dermatologist - why is dermatologist targeted on the page or in any links?

[DavidAW]

Thank you for your detailed reply. But if you could clarify a few things for me I would really appreciate it.

Originally Posted by fathom

However, dermatology SEO customers do not desire ranks for a single phrase they want ranks a list of all potential synonyms, brands, and regional queries mixing and matching hundreds, thousands, or 10s of thousands of phrases because the usual traffic on any single phrase is 1 or 2 a day, or week, or month.

How do you know this?

Originally Posted by fathom

This forces you to deliver webspam because whitehat developments for a list of all potential synonyms, brands, and regional queries mixing and matching hundreds, thousands, or 10s of thousands of niche phrases on the off-chance they might make revenue from any one is specifically difference from guaranteed revenue from any one.

What is webspam? Extra pages? I was under the impression (maybe incorrectly) that you aim to put 3-5 keywords to focus on for each individual page. So even if you have a website with 50 pages, so 50x5 = 250 keywords, what do you do with all the "thousands of keywords" -- considering that you want only 5 per page. Once you've put in the 250, where do the rest go?

And do you need to track all of the long tail keywords?

A better philosophy: A WEBPAGE IS WHAT IT IS UNTIL YOU MAKE IT SOMETHING ELSE!

Onpage stuff... target for exact matches
Offpage stuff... target for broad matches and
Watch Analytics for your niche topics to develop phrase matches

botox - single word link to a botox page
dermatologist - single word link to the about us page page
islip - get links for city specific resources
ny - get links for state (or national) specific resources

This mix and match approach while difficult to formulate a preplan for any specific phrase affords you to develop lesser competitive phrases quickly. Obviously, if you see in Analytics that someone typed in botox doctors in ny city islip and you search and see you are #9, 1 exact match link develop now will drive you to #1 and as value added you'll get new phrases botox doctor near nyc, islip islip botox dermatology ny state

... eventually you'll see alternative phrase patterns to develop like dermatology doc or doc for botox which affords your to develop the overall philosophy:

A WEBPAGE IS WHAT IT IS UNTIL YOU MAKE IT SOMETHING ELSE!...

or if you are getting lots of traffic on DOC and very few for dermatologist - why is dermatologist targeted on the page or in any links?

This part I didn't get. If you have a page about botox (an individual page under the "procedures" section), why would be be better to optmize for "botox" vs. "botox islip ny"?


Thank you very much for your insight!

[fathom]

Originally Posted by DavidAW

Thank you for your detailed reply. But if you could clarify a few things for me I would really appreciate it.

How do you know this?

Assuming you're the SEO ask your customer?

A local phrase might get 2 clicks a day and have conversion rate of 0.1%... so every 15 months that gets a new customer... Go figure they will pay for that. Yes?

What is webspam? Extra pages? I was under the impression (maybe incorrectly) that you aim to put 3-5 keywords to focus on for each individual page. So even if you have a website with 50 pages, so 50x5 = 250 keywords, what do you do with all the "thousands of keywords" -- considering that you want only 5 per page. Once you've put in the 250, where do the rest go?

And do you need to track all of the long tail keywords?

What's email spam? Crappy undesirable emails right.

Webspam are crappy pages or crappy links meant to artificially inflate a webpage above the level it is meant to be at without webspam.

This part I didn't get. If you have a page about botox (an individual page under the "procedures" section), why would be be better to optmize for "botox" vs. "botox islip ny"?

It would be better to optimize for "botox islip ny"... IF that is the only phrase that page could rank for... generally though, you won't rank well for "islip ny botox"... because that is a different phrase which requires different link anchors which leads to you inventing webspam.

[DavidAW]

Originally Posted by fathom

Assuming you're the SEO ask your customer?

A local phrase might get 2 clicks a day and have conversion rate of 0.1%... so every 15 months that gets a new customer... Go figure they will pay for that. Yes?



What's email spam? Crappy undesirable emails right.

Webspam are crappy pages or crappy links meant to artificially inflate a webpage above the level it is meant to be at without webspam.



It would be better to optimize for "botox islip ny"... IF that is the only phrase that page could rank for... generally though, you won't rank well for "islip ny botox"... because that is a different phrase which requires different link anchors which leads to you inventing webspam.

Got it. But what's the problem with taking a botox page and using all 5 variations of the "botox physician islip ny" keyword? And using the "best" one as the primary keyword?

If I just made the page optimized for "botox", how could I possibly compete on just the word "botox"?

And what does one do where there are 1,000 keywords for a website? Does the website then need to be 100 pages to accommodate the keywords?

[fathom]

Originally Posted by DavidAW

Got it. But what's the problem with taking a botox page and using all 5 variations of the "botox physician islip ny" keyword? And using the "best" one as the primary keyword?

If I just made the page optimized for "botox", how could I possibly compete on just the word "botox"?

And what does one do where there are 1,000 keywords for a website? Does the website then need to be 100 pages to accommodate the keywords?

You have a pile of assumptions that you assume you have exact details on their value!

1. You assume you know how long it will take to rank the customer for each phrase (any phrase)
2. You assume you know how much link & content assets you will need to push past the current competitive landscape
3. You assume that the competition will just lay down and not attempt to beat you once you attempt to start beating them
4. You assume the environment you work in is 100% static and you know how much all that will cost as if links and content are 100% free of all costs
5. You assume you know how much revenue the customer will make with the phrase
6. You assume regardless of how long it takes, how many assets you need, how little the competition will attempt to compete, how much your overhead will cost and how much (or how little) the customer will make - that they will be 100% satisfied with with your phrases (and only these)even though you cannot say today precisely how much each is worth to any customer if they are in fact #1.

I've seen phrases suggested to be worth 96,000/month in traffic get 10 visitors a day or a big fat 99.7% lie and sales non-existent.

Why do you want to limit yourself to pure assumptions?

[DarrenHaye]

Are you currently working for a physician David?.

[DavidAW]

Originally Posted by DarrenHaye

Are you currently working for a physician David?.

No - it's an analogy of some local niche work that I do. I appreciate fathom's detailed replies, but I feel like I need to take a step back after reading what he wrote.

Would it be possible to answer the questions I asked?-- and specifically about one would even being to implement 1,000 keywords without a 200 page website?

And why I should be aiming for Botox on single page, as opposed to the many long-tailed keywords I listed as examples? How could I compete with a broad term such as "botox"?

And also, with the niche of local and so little traffic, it's really difficult to predict which keywords will work and which won't -- I get that.

I also get it that there are lot's of factors, but I'm just trying to nail down a few general concepts here with the botox example I gave.

Thanks.

[Test-ok]

Would it be possible to answer the questions I asked?-- and specifically about one would even being to implement 1,000 keywords without a 200 page website?

The second post is your answer.
You may need to read it a number of times and hopefully it'll hit you like a ton of bricks.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by DavidAW

And why I should be aiming for Botox on single page, as opposed to the many long-tailed keywords I listed as examples? How could I compete with a broad term such as "botox"?

You are not attempting to compete on the term botox... you are attempting to rank on any of the million phrases that uses the term botox like:

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving With a Botox Pict or

if you have two words covered in a longtail phrase

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Islip Cave and Grooving With a Botox Pict or

if you have three words covered in a longtail phrase for

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Needing a Dermatiologist Gathered Together in a Islip Cave and Grooving With a Botox Pict

You'll be #1 for all unless you target your chosen exact matches... and then you only get those few phrases and not the easiest rankable ones.

And also, with the niche of local and so little traffic, it's really difficult to predict which keywords will work and which won't -- I get that.

If you're targeting where your traffic is coming from (say starting at page 2 or 3 or bottom of page one)... it is a really solid bet getting to top 3 will produce "MUCH MORE"... but when you don't have a clue "how much is there" that's a bad bet (or at least a worse one).

I also get it that there are lot's of factors, but I'm just trying to nail down a few general concepts here with the botox example I gave.

Thanks.

Stop making assumptions - throw a dozen broad terms (links) at a domain and watch what trickles up through the competitive landscape in Analytics... target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again... etc.

[DavidAW]

Originally Posted by fathom

You are not attempting to compete on the term botox... you are attempting to rank on any of the million phrases that uses the term botox like:

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving With a Botox Pict or

if you have two words covered in a longtail phrase

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Islip Cave and Grooving With a Botox Pict or

if you have three words covered in a longtail phrase for

Several Species of Small Furry Animals Needing a Dermatiologist Gathered Together in a Islip Cave and Grooving With a Botox Pict

You'll be #1 for all unless you target your chosen exact matches... and then you only get those few phrases and not the easiest rankable ones.



If your targeting is 100% on where your traffic is coming from (say page 2 or 3 or bottom of page two)... it is a really solid bet getting to top 3 will produce "MORE"... but when you don't have a clue "how much is there" that's a bad bet (or at least a worse one).



Stop making assumptions - throw a dozen broad terms (links) at a domain and watch what trickles up through the competitive landscape in Analytics... target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again... etc.

Ok I think that some of this is making some sense finally. When I talked about using the 5 keywords on a page -- I did mean mixed in with content.

I would write "Botox is an important blah blahn and Dr. Jones has been performing botox for her pateints in Islip for more than 5 years. She has taken advanced botox continuing education and is one of the leading botox providers in the area..."

I think that's what you mean.

But when you talk about

Stop making assumptions - throw a dozen broad terms (links) at a domain and watch what trickles up through the competitive landscape in Analytics... target those and watch Analytics again...

target those and watch Analytics again...

are you talking about incoming link building? I ask because it's very difficult to get good inbound links for the medical field. You have articles they've written, blog posts about the subject (botox), links from local chamber of commerce, newspapers, local community papers, medical professional organizations,etc.

And once again, if you have 1,000 keywords and you only have 50 pages, how do you work them in? I don't know why I don't get this one yet.

[fathom]

Originally Posted by Test-ok

The second post is your answer.
You may need to read it a number of times and hopefully it'll hit you like a ton of bricks.

Ya DIY SEOs focus too much in disecting into separate components without realizing your car isn't your car if it's missing the tires or the engine, or the steering wheel or the gas tank or the gas or the oil, etc.

Yes these are all the pieces but just having the pieces still doesn't get you from point A to point B.

Put the tires on the roof doesn't help any more than having the gas in the trunk... a complete coherent solution is needed... not tips or tricks.

[DarrenHaye]

I'm sure if I were your client I would be thrilled at your lack of knowledge on how to successfully SEO my site David

[DavidAW]

Originally Posted by DarrenHaye

I'm sure if I were your client I would be thrilled at your lack of knowledge on how to successfully SEO my site David

Wow! I came here honestly looking for some advice and you were kind enough to insult me and deride me for asking questions in return. Enjoy your high pedestal.

[DarrenHaye]

Originally Posted by DavidAW

Wow! I came here honestly looking for some advice and you were kind enough to insult me and deride me for asking questions in return. Enjoy your high pedestal.

Colour me crazy, but it's good to be able to provide the service you're selling before you sell it.