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    Cross Linking Sites


    After reading the Optimization Tips page here at Google-Dance.com I noticed this warning...

    "2. Do NOT interlink your sites if you own more than one in an attempt to maximize your PR."

    Is this an absolute rule?

    I have two sites with basically the same info, optimized for two different sets of keywords. I would like to link both sites to each other from the index page of each site.

    Is this something that's going to get me in trouble with Google?
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    Thanks Darrin.

    So then, what is the definition of "interlinking".

    For example, many of Yahoo.com's backlink sites probably have links to yahoo.com. Is this considered interlinking?

    Also, if my friend has a web site that I like, and my friend likes my web site, and we decide to link to each other, then could this perfectly innocent situation be grounds for Google to ban either of the sites?

    How does Google know when interlinking is done solely for the purpose of boosting pagerank? How can Google determine intent?
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    a comment/question on cross linking


    A question for Darrin on cross linking: A true link exchange is when at least 2 sites agree to link back to each other. In most situations, unless you supply information (such as an article) that would make a website more valuable by linking to you, website owners want some consideration for putting a link to your site, usually in the form of a link back. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that if a large enough percent of the sites that you link to, link back to you, then Google will consider you a link farm and either pr0 you or ban you? If this is the case, how does one convince someone to link to their site without a reciprocal link?
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    cross linking


    No Darrin, I don't think that you're wrong. I imagine that no one knows for sure the optimal way to do links. I also think that most webmasters do not go out and look for other sites to link to, but most probably do rack their brains trying to figure out how to get other sites to link to them. I'm just thinking that reciprocal links don't hurt as much on Google as most folks think. I also think (no I have not tried to clarify this) that most of the links, on most of the sites, on Google are recips. Google certainly knows that the best way for folks to get links to their sites is to exchange them.
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    but for a new site that is wanting to get crawled, having recripcal links can only help, for instance site 1 has been listed on the search engines for about a year, site 2 is new, isn't on the search engines and has the same relative content, i think(and have done it) that having a few(no more than 20) reciprical links can't hurt, but will help get your site listed with the search engines that crawl
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    It seems to me that farm sites are thriving on google. Here are a couple examples I found:

    http://www.horny-naked-women-photos.com/
    -7th for "naked women" (which has over 10,000 searches per day)
    http://www.free-sexpictures.biz/
    -6th for "free sex pictures" (another highly searched term)

    There's lots more, but all seem to be for adult terms. Maybe farm sites only work for adult terms? But that doesn't make sense, really. Anybody have proof that farm sites don't work?
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    Not surprising that farms are working today


    Google appears to be doing some pretty odd stuff with its algorythms this update. It's like they've flashed back 2 years and have grabbed some "antiquated" ranking system and brought it back from the dead.

    I too have noticed farms working alot more during this update. Will I begin using them ... not on your life. Prediction from this webmaster ... within two updates farms will be dropped again and life will return to normal in Googland - probably with a few new twists just to keep us all on our toes.

    There's one thing I don't like about this entire posting and that is that these tactics are meant only to boost ranking, not quality or usability. If you want my advice, just make your sites easily navigated, full of good content, well structured, and by all means get as many inbound links as you can and heck, if you find a quality site you think your users might be interested in, link to them too (open in new window of course .

    Google is striving to get their algorythms to the point where it is the most relevant and user friendly sites that rank at the top. My philosophy: just design my sites this way and eventually Google will get them to number one. They're doing a darn good job thus far and out of 8 sites indexed I have 8 in the top 3.

    Don't be "tricky" - be good. Success will follow.
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    Hey Dave!


    You said...

    There's one thing I don't like about this entire posting and that is that these tactics are meant only to boost ranking, not quality or usability.
    And...

    My philosophy: just design my sites this way and eventually Google will get them to number one.
    As well as...

    Don't be "tricky" - be good. Success will follow.
    *************************

    Let me break it down for you.

    I've busted my hump to get where I'm at and I'll be damned if I am going to sit back and wait for Google to do the right thing.

    I came up with an idea to pull me out of the trailer park.
    I went to school to learn electronics and drafting to develop my idea.
    I drew, with a pencil, hundreds of drawings, going through hundreds of permutations of the product in order to come up with something that would work. From a broken down desk in a leaky storage shed smaller than the inside of a minivan.
    I practically sold my soul getting a patent.
    I went back to school to learn computer drafting so that I could draw my invention so a manufacturer would take me seriously enough to give me a quote on production costs.
    I read books on the Chinese and how to do business with them so I wouldn't get screwed in the manufacturing process.
    I went back and forth with the manufacturer via thousands of emails in order to finalize the prototype drawings.
    I went into debt up to my eyeballs in order to get a relatively small number of product produced.
    I borrowed more of my future buying a digital camera(before they got cheap) and took thousands of pictures of the product learning the basics of photography and computer graphic manipulation in order to put something on my web site.
    I learned what I could about the internet and web site design and built a store to sell my product.
    I've scoured the internet learning how to optimize my site so that I can get somewhere near the first page of results.
    I've become directory editors for U NAME IT DIRECTORIES, payed my dues to yahoo and studied and tested just about all the code my frazzled brain can handle.

    Now I'm supposed to sit back and wait for Google to do the right thing?

    I DON'T THINK SO!

    I'm going to use every legal trick in the book to get good position at Google. And if that doesnít work, Iím going to use every trick that guy at the number one spot above me is using.

    If Google doesn't like it, what are they going to do? Drive me into debt? Make me live in a trailer park? Send my site to the end of the SERPs?

    Well they're too damn late. I'm already there.

    And another thing...

    At this point in the process, am I I really supposed to take advice from a snake-oil salesman. Give me a break!

    Even Canada is too good for you!

    Get off my continent and move to France!

    **************

    I hope you all enjoyed reading this post as much as I enjoyed writing it!
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    Did you enjoy?


    Well DoWhat, I do hope that you feel better getting that off your chest.

    I really don't care whether you take my advice or not. I use the tactics I have described and guess what? THEY WORK!!! (shocking I'm sure).

    Google can change their algorythm if they like, It will generally improve my rankings or keep them where they are. Why, becouse The structures of my sites are easily navigated (with consideration for search engines of course), easily structured, and of basic layout as far as table structure. I use every honest tactic I can and reseacrh much.

    I won't get into what I've been through in my life, please don't bother waisting my time lecturing about yours. Life is hard.

    So do what you like and I hope it works well for you.

    I'm not saying don't be smart about it, but why use a tactic that may be accounted four two indexes from now?

    And think what you like about what I do - I don't judge your job or you, please don't judge me and mine. I was trying to share what I had found to be successful ... Do with that what you will.[/quote]
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    You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    In one post you talk about doing the right thing.
    In another you talk about using 'tricks' and 'gambling'.

    Being in the middle is being a moderate.

    Being a moderate means you can't make up your mind, and then God spits your luke warm soul out of his mouth.

    Anyway, what does it take to get a rise out of you?

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    A rise out of me? Why bother?


    Tricks? Making sure your metas are in shape, that you actually do something as simple as use headers where appropriate, and such tacktics are not particularly "tricky" it's more along the lines of common sence.

    That said, I don't recal ever claiming to be some altruistic zen web designer. I believe I have been misunderstood.

    Honestly I don't think link farms are a good idea. Yup the recent index rewards them but they will be penalized again and I don't want to jump on board a sinking ship. And they'll drop off for all the right reasons.

    I want the high rankings as much as anyone else. I say don't be tricky. Be good. I'm gathering that people took that as menaing being a saint. What I meant was that the tricks people are discussing here will not work in a couple months. By good I mean use your brains. Are there legitimate ways that actually benefit the site and the visitor.? Yes indeed there are. I will leave the "how" to you.

    And did I come up with them for the goodness of humanity? No I did not ... I did it because I am an underpaid employee supporting a family of four. You want to use tactics that, not only do not benefit the visitor in any way, but that also which will certainly be blacklisted at some point, be my guest.

    If you benefit the visitor then you will benefit yourself in Google. If you disagree, well, there's probably more than one way to skin a horse.

    Cheers and good night.
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    The whole crosslinking problem makes little sense to me. Let's say I own four sites dealing with golf. One is a catalog site, one has golf tips, one has golf travel and one sells golf art. If I was to link all those sites together with a "visit our other sites" table on the index page, I am going to get a PR0 from google for this??

    Just really doesnt make much sense to me

    christianity.com also owns christianbbs.com, lightsource.com, conline.net, mychristianstart.com they are all linked from each site and I don't see their PR as being zero?

    It seems to me that linking to other sites you own makes good marketing sense, if you have a surfer in your site why not keep the traffic and send him to a related site that you own. It only increases the chance of making a sale.
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    I agree, and people make too big a deal of it. Cross linking isn't bad on a small scale, or even a 1000-site scale. Interlinking is so common, so easy to do, and so easy to do on accident, that there can't be a penalty for it unless things get out of hand.

    Ponder this one. Do a search for webalizer or analog statistics pages. That is the epitome of cross linking/recip linking/etc ... every page that links to that site has a link in the referrer section of the stats... some with 1000's of links.

    ... or a web development firm or developer that puts a link "Designed by xxxxx" linking to their site.... a VERY common practice, most of which appear on the designer's portfolio page.

    Large meshes of sites (over 20 or so) would definitely kill things, and is pretty dumb and hard to pull off ... but just a few sites (I have interlinked a mesh of 10 commercial sites for years now), and only on certain pages (like a links page) is fine IMHO (or at least none of my sites have ever been penalized for it)
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    cross linking


    In the good old days, before Page Rank, most websites used "links pages." Now, however, everyone knows about PR and wants a link off of the index.html page, which is ususally the page with the highest PR. So Darrin, if a group of sites all interlink off of their index.html pages but do have a small % of links going out to other sites and coming in from other sites not in that group, in your opinion, will Google penalize this as a link farm?
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    cross linking


    Sorry about the confusion, Darrin. Let's say that a company owns 100 websites. It interlinks them. Some point back and forth to each other. Some point to sites (within the 100) that do not point back. In addition, some of the sites link out to other sites that are not owned by this company and some of the sites have links that point back in from sites that are not owned by this company. However, the external outgoing and incoming links account for about 5% or so of the links, with the remaining 95% of links being to or from sites within that 100. If each site has it's own purpose, it's own content, and is on it's own separate IP will google still think of this as a farm, or just a medium sized company trying to do business on the internet?
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