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  1. Modsky
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    The sandbox effect


    The SandBox Effect,

    This post at that other forum, a long time ago stuck in my head, considering the source was “G man” himself.
    “I heard that at PubCon, DaveN suggested that Google should only update the visible PR and link: data once a quarter or so... ;)
    thatotherforum/forum3/22566.htm“

    Now I hadn’t given it much thought until recently when a few clients of mine went out and purchased thousands of back links, and within 1-2 months were at a PR 8 for a new domain 2-3 months old.

    Now the situation: (And no I’m not going to post the domain don’t want a million link request coming in because of the PR 8) but take my word for it, the site is well written, decently SEO’d (Completely SE Friendly from inception and just needs tweaking) and has more back links then anyone in its field. Also It’s field has hundreds of thousands if not millions of searches combined for its main keywords so a well ranked site would get tons of traffic, however this site is getting some 60 uniques per day from Google…60!

    There are thousands of pages in the domain all targeting different terms and Like I said it’s a PR 8 so even with the slightest hint of SE friendliness (Which is not overdone btw density is like 1-5 % in most cases) they should by all rights ROCK EVERYONE!

    So what’s the problem? Some good friends of mine and I have been tossing around the idea of the sandbox effect. Basically it states that PR and back link (pure link popularity) credit is placed in a reserve for a period of time say 2-4 months before it is applied to ranking and has an effect. The theory behind this is to combat PR purchasers from Google bombing, jumping into a field and dominating right off the bat. If PR appears to not be working people will stop buying it. If people stop buying page rank then its original purpose gains validity again. But instead of having to dump it because of abuse wait till people realize its no longer useful just put a delay on its effect and people will “think” it no longer counts and those spending thousands abusing it will quickly realize after 1-2 months of no benefit that it no longer works and move on.

    Pretty sneaky and rather effective I think, however I can’t prove or disprove at this point I just wanted to put it to your attention for discussion. Also please realize I do not subscribe to this theory although it supported by a few hundred observed instances of the same phenomenon.

    I would love to hear members comments on this situation and its implications, evidence to support but also evidence to refute its existence. Situations, examples etc also if anyone has access to any articles, forum posts, discussion groups etc pertaining to this phenomenon I would love for your to share, I am anxious to put this theory to bed either proved or disproved.
    Cheers
    Webmasters who spend their energies upholding the spirit of the basic principles [Of Google] will provide a much better user experience and subsequently enjoy better ranking than those who spend their time looking for loopholes they can exploit. Google.com

    Real Estate
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    Hi Seo Guy,

    I would say that if their density is 1-5% then they should bump that up to 5-10% and they would see a hell of an improvement all round. Also working on internal link popularity and context.

    Your theroy is certainly viable and interesting, and very cleaver of Google if that's what they're currently doing (or will do in the future). The only thing that would suggest to me that it's not working right now is the fact that I can put up a new site & get a few incoming links from 4,5,6 PR sites a week later, and then the site is given respective PR5 or 6 only weeks later, and the search engine positions climb as a result. I could be wrong, and / or maybe the pool is only working on higher PR sites.

    Best...

    Duncan
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    Originally Posted by duncancarver
    The only thing that would suggest to me that it's not working right now is the fact that I can put up a new site & get a few incoming links from 4,5,6 PR sites a week later, and then the site is given respective PR5 or 6 only weeks later..
    Yes my new pages are like this... but changes or PR update of older pages take forever to have an effect.
    What I see on my single site is in agreement with SEO-GUY theorie.
    I will be able to see more later since my links basically trippled on the last update and had basically no significant rank changes since brandy took place. Even with some good page title changes...
    Disclaimer : My posts on SEO are just from my observations and I do not say it is a true fact... A real fact of life is that, I'm often wrong...
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    EGOL
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    My observations are that since about October the crediting of PR into your ranking has been running in slow motion and getting slower........

    It used to be that you could put the juice to a site and be slammin the competition a couple days later. They would be wondering what in the Hell hit them. These days it seems to take a lot longer.... and on a couple of my sites I am wondering if this stuff still works.... maybe it now takes themed linkage.

    On the same note, six months ago you could tweak your title tag and your site would jump or fall in the serps quickly. This is now also working much slower than before.
    * "It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog." Mark Twain
    * "Free advice isn't worth much. Cheap advice is worth even less." EGOL
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    Originally Posted by EGOL
    ... maybe it now takes themed linkage.
    Then you'll start getting only themed links, in 3 month the non- themed effect will kick in and you'll think it's the themed links that did it.
    It's very good... no ?
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    EGOL
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    Originally Posted by Jocelyn
    Then you'll start getting only themed links, in 3 month the non- themed effect will kick in and you'll think it's the themed links that did it.
    It's very good... no ?
    lol...

    Maybe you are right Jocelyn!

    What do you guys think of this idea.... I have been thinking that google is now doing so gawdawful many calculations that their system is working overtime to gather the data and do the rankings... so what if it is a bit slower... it will only confuse the SEOs!

    OR... let's say that google cross references linkage boosts and the frequency of api querries... then they will know who is blastin PR into a site then tappin their toe for their rankings to soar. They are makin you wait, bad boy.. lol

    I am posting this stuff for a little bit of humor but maybe it is true!
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  13. Modsky
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    Thats the thing guys, the links are pretty well themed and 1 way links, also some recip links with perfectly themed sites with PR 7-8.

    Keep in mind my theory doesnt apply to established sites, I have found once you have an established page reputation you can rank for any semi competitive term in your field within days. Give me "SEO + Anything" and I can be #1 or #2 that week with a brand new PR 0 page but thats because my site is older has well established links etc. Thats what happens with sites like amazon etc as well

    This is applying to only new domains from what I can see, and I've honestly only been studying really competitive markets such as plastic surgery, real estate and casinos but still I have tried this with mediocre terms with very little success as well.

    Now, I am applying exactly the same techniques for new sites as I am for established sites and perhaps this is the problem. Could their be ways of SEO'ing differently for the 2? I have top 1o rankings for online pharmacy, free online casino (s) and tons of other terms using my techniques so I dont think its me heh, but then again I really dont know any more and Im getting rather flustered with new domains.

    Keep the posts coming guys would love to hear from some more of you who either have this problem or have conquered this problem. In fact if you have a workaround I'd make it worth your while
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    Morgan, as you know there is ton of discussion on this "sand boxed theory" which was named by WMW.

    It has been isolated to new domain names.

    There has been no other criteria that makes sense, besides the new domain name.

    Sites that leave "the sand box" do so after 2 months or so but no one knows exactly why yet.
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  17. Modsky
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    Do you have any specifc threads Barry? I have this one http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/23405.htm but really doesn't explain much and I'm actually looking for info that will help me solve the problem not a bunch of people agreeing that they have the same problem

    I have read tons of thread over at wmw but none of them contained any sort of real data analysis or testing. Oviously I have my own testing going on but I'll be honest I need help on this one. I'm not willing to accept the fact that I have to wait if there is a way for competitive terms to be ranked by a new domain I need to find it!

    If anyone is interested on some collaborative testing let me know im game for anything.
    Thanks guys
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    the are a lot of talks about the sandbox affect, seems that new sites (not poges_ are ranked but not seen in the SERP, this was widely reported. no one knows for sure why and GG did not comment about t, I guess that if google is going to an IPO soon , we will not see any postings from them in the near future up under the "quiet period" is over.
    I was next to daveN at PubCon when he suggested to matt from Google to halt the indexing, belive me it was done as a joke and NO one took it in the wrong way.
    /BP
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  21. Modsky
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    I have much more info and will be formulating some conclusions soon. BP My post had nothing really to do with what Dave said, more on observation of how new sites are being treated by Google
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  23. The BIG Lion of SEO
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    I have had the same situation with sites in the real estate and online casinos. My old established sites went to PR 6 & 7 within weeks. My new sites have already been up for 4 - 6 weeks still PR0 no other pages indexed showing 0 backlinks! But they have close to 57 backlinks from themed sites for the same time and over 200 for the last 3 weeks!

    Is it possible that Google is running a whois check. As my one older site is PR 7 never listed with Google until January 2004 and changes has effected within 2 weeks.
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    Also, its not about competitive terms. You can be trying to rank for "uncompetitive keyword phrase in state" and you wont come up.
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    Keep in mind my theory doesnt apply to established sites
    i agree...i believe google is getting smart to the whole 'buy-1000-links-for-a-new-domain-and-shoot-to-the-top' game. a friend of mine recently experienced this when he bought over 1000 links pointing to a new domain from two seperate sites, both with heavy PR, and went from PR 0 - PR 6 in one update but no listings in the SERPs. i think google is looking for some type of 'natural progression'...in other words, it's not very natural for a brand new domain to come out of nowhere with thousands of one-way links from heavy PR sites...
    Last edited by SumOne; Apr 26th, 2004 at 03:25 PM. Reason: it's almost 5pm, i'm anxious to go home and not paying attention to my typing skillz.
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    ok, lets pretty much call this FACT - cause I have had the same exact things happenning....

    I can get excellent serps on a keyword from my orignal website with a brand new page...

    but whenever I try a keyword on a new website - just doesn't work.... No-where to be found , but does get indexed...

    With the original site - a brand new page can get #1 in serps in 2 days...

    So let's think about this.....

    I remember hearing that Google was going to query whois to compare linking sites to owners..... But I don't believe that is practicle..... How else could they get the age - stats - program start time? Can googlebot grab the program start time from the hosting server?

    Maybe it really is just the DMOZ listing.... Usually new sites don't have a DMOZ listing right away, and even if it get's one it takes months to go from DMOZ to Google Directory - then Months to Gain PR from those directory listings....

    One thing is for sure - if this is true which I believe it is - This will have a huge effect on the expired Domain name market....
    -
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