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    Originally Posted by Highland
    So many people treat SEO like a black box. Ask people what they are doing and why. If they give you the runaround, the "magic sauce" speech, or the "you wouldn't understand" speech, fire them. They work for you.

    People who hire SEO gurus and then leave them to do their thing typically come back here and ask "My ranking dropped! Why?"
    That's usually where fathom points at you and laughs.
    Agreed and disagreed at the same time.

    Regarding black box. There are a few methods I use which I do not go into detail with - not my clients, not my friends. It's not a magic sauce as much as it is protecting myself from competition stealing or copying discovered methods.

    To the latter comment about hiring and firing them. Been there many times. It's suicide. A client is unhappy with results after a month, walks away, does his own SEO - see's a boost from the 1 month SEO, thinks they know SEO and then comes back crying 3 months later.
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  2. #17
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    Start by avoiding these people (my favourite list!):

    7 SEO Idiots (I Mean 'Experts') to Avoid SEO.com
    12 More SEO Idiots (or Experts) to Avoid SEO.com

    Have to say I have found freelance and elance absolutely useless for hiring when we have overflow work. For SEO it's a bit of a mess there.

    I think some of the stuff on this thread might be what you are wanting to avoid - doing too much yourself when you should be running your business. Bit like learning to drive so you can do the deliveries because good drivers are hard to find ...

    I would start with doing some homework right here. At the top right of this page is a menu with a 'community' option. Click on this and choose 'Member List'. Make sure the list you see is sorted by 'Reputation' - names like EGOL and KernelPanic should be at the top.

    Click on some of the names to see profiles and the threads these people have taken part in. If they sound like the kind of person you could work with send them a Private Message asking for a consultation/quote.

    Note - many of the members here do not do commercial work so there will be some dead ends but it will be time well spent. At the end you will have:
    1) Someone who actually knows what their doing (virtually guaranteed - anyone in the first two pages is there because they talk sense!)
    2) Someone who matches your budget
    3) Someone who you feel is on the same wavelength as you so you can build a long term relationship

    Comments on this post

    • Novice agrees : Yeah Gold! Thanks for the great advice, I will be sure to do the above.
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  4. #18
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    Heaps of great advise, thanks!
    I guess I just need to find the right "Gun" and crack on! If there is anyone who might be interested, please let me know.
    I think my first action is to get the sites set-up to convert better and then SEO.

    Joshz, I understand this is not an overnight process and that results will come with time.

    Cheers,
    J.
    Last edited by Novice; Jan 4th, 2013 at 08:35 PM.
  6. #19
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    Originally Posted by Novice
    Hey Team,
    Hope you are all well!
    (Sorry for the RANT below).
    No problem, rant away! But here's the facts: You sell a product that many think is a scam on a website that any one of us could build in around 20 hours. We could order this miracle drug for 8 bucks a bottle from myriad places and sell it for ourselves, so this begs the question: Why do we need you?
    Originally Posted by Novice
    So as per my (old) title “Who/How the frick do I hire people?”
    Honestly? You don't know how to interview someone for a job, ask for reverences, check their references and do a background check? How long have you been in business?
    Originally Posted by Novice
    I have asked for guarantees and all I get is “well it is hard because umm, well umm, Goggle might not umm, blah, blah, blah”. None of the companies were willing to stand behind their work.
    I understand things change, panda etc, but I am not happy knowing that half of these companies outsource anyway.
    I am happy to pay for a service, but only a service that works!
    My guarantee is this: I guarantee to do everything to your website that I have done on all these other websites to get them ranked. I will then give the potential client a list of my current clients to call to verify. If anyone promises you anything more than that, you are probably being scammed.

    SEO is not a great hail mary play, our goal is to provide a positive return on our clients investment, if we can make you rich, that's cool but the truth is if you spend a dollar and we earn you 2 back you have to be satisfied with that.

    Here's another truth: You are in an industry dominated by scammers, spammers, rip off artists and con men. They are really, really, REALLY good at what they do and they are spending big money "to rank top 3 for 4-5 keywords, have 6-8 quality scores and have two sites that work well to sell the public" You are probably not going to get anywhere on $800 a month.

    I would not take the work because I don't see a positive return on your investment with the budget you want to dedicate to the project.
    Last edited by KernelPanic; Jan 5th, 2013 at 03:24 AM.
  8. #20
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    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    But here's the facts: You sell a product that many think is a scam on a website that any one of us could build in around 20 hours. We could order this miracle drug for 8 bucks a bottle from myriad places and sell it for ourselves, so this begs the question: Why do we need you?
    It's a fair point - I have some experience with Aloe Vera and I know the quality (and the price) of similar looking products varies dramatically. You can buy a bottle of Aloe to drink from one brand and it will costs you a few dollars while another brand will set you back $50.

    The problem remains with natural products that they battle against large pharmaceutical companies who don't like having their profitable prescription drug revenue rattled and the FDA is completely screwed up in the way it polices the market.

    So for every 1 good alternative health product there are 99 useless scam products, even in the same field. So how are you going to prove yours?

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    My guarantee is this: I guarantee to do everything to your website that I have done on all these other websites to get them ranked. I will then give the potential client a list of my current clients to call to verify. If anyone promises you anything more than that, you are probably being scammed.
    Best piece of advice I've seen in ages.

    But it could be that SEO is a red herring. Why don't you concentrate on taking your product to where the market is rather than trying to get the market to come to you - i.e. Amazon, ebay, etc.?

    I also see your budget as too low considering how competitive the market is.
  10. #21
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    I read this post when it first went up and watched it with interest before posting. Firstly I have to say I am no SEO expert, I don't do it for a living nor do I want to but I am a website owner just like yourself. I have in the past also wasted loads of money using so called SEO experts with little or no results so decided to do it myself with the help of brought in services I either don't have the time for or expertise in plus reading all the great advice on here.

    I did have a look at your site, and its OK. Its maybe not the best looking around and lacks authority to separate you from the 1000's of scam sites out there but this is the business you have chosen and you know the industry probably better than anyone here so you should be looking at yourself for the best advice on how to set yourself apart from these sites.

    Personally I think you need to do 2 things,
    1.
    Have a good hard look at your landing pages and do they scream that your products work with good calls to action. You may not be getting many visitors at the moment but the ones that do visit you need to convert. To make that happen your site needs to fill the users with confidence and be easy to use. I have not used this tool but you may want to give it a go. ClickTale, The leader in Heatmaps, Usability & Web Analytics
    If it does as it says then you should be able to watch how users interact with your site and where you could improve to increase your sales. It should highlight where people are having problems and give you pointers on areas of your site that needs looking at. Conversion should be your main focus and not tweaking title tags etc.

    I would also suggest you watch this video 38 proven conversion techniques you can put to use immediately - YouTube
    This video was recorded back in 2009 but I am sure it will help you focus your thoughts. Its around an hour long so set some time apart to watch it and make notes. It talks a lot about converting users of your site to customers so its back to basics really but offers some great advice and talks about tools to help you.
    If you need more content for your site but find it a nightmare writing like I do then hire someone who enjoys writing, I use the services of The Creative Writer who creates fantastic original text when ever I need it and also at a very reasonable price. She is English so her work may need tweaking I guess for use in other countries.

    2.
    You will also want to build traffic and rise in your serps slowly, even if you have the best website in the world with fantastic on-site SEO and great conversion rates if few people know about it you wont get get the opportunity to convert them (stupid and obvious statement) So I would hire someone to just help build backlinks of quality. I can recommend the services of Joshz on this board or can be found at Atlanta SEO, Joomla Development - Web Design Firm - V2interactive I have used him and have been very pleased with the results. I am sure there are others here who can also help but I personally have not used them so cant recommend them. I also continue myself to build back links on top of Joshz's work but I am now a lot more selective on where I do them so don't just buy in these services and sit back, you need to keep busy as well, its your site so your investing this time in yourself.

    Offsite work as everyone here will tell you is not quick, I normally wait a minimum of 6 weeks to see if the work done has had any effect. But in reality it can take much longer. Any money paid for back linking should be treated as a long term investment, you should see a slow but steady increase in SERPS and traffic but the more you spend in this area the more stable your position should be over time. Never go for 1,000 backlinks for 5 bucks, they will just damage your site.

    Just my 2 cents worth, hope some of it might be of some help.

    Comments on this post

    • Novice agrees
    Good SERPS is great, Traffic however is even better
  12. #22
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    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    No problem, rant away! But here's the facts: You sell a product that many think is a scam on a website that any one of us could build in around 20 hours. We could order this miracle drug for 8 bucks a bottle from myriad places and sell it for ourselves, so this begs the question: Why do we need you?
    WOW, you have really gone balls deep with this reply!
    I kind of get your point with "Why do we need you", but WTF? I am not here for a pissing competition KP, I genuinely need help with my site, sorry!
    Why don't you need me? Why would you build a site and sell this product?
    The product works and sells, that is not the issue! The issue is, I don't know enough about websites to get the best out of them, hence why I am here.

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    Honestly? You don't know how to interview someone for a job, ask for reverences, check their references and do a background check? How long have you been in business?
    Again, slow down cowboy! I appreciate that you might be great at what you do, but relax would ya!
    Yes I can interview people and have for my company and others. I have seen references etc, but these people have just not worked out.
    I hired one of the "top" SEO companies in Australia for my old company, they said I need to pay $X for X keywords and we got started. After 6 months we moved 8 spots over 4 keywords. At what point was I meant to know it was not working? These guys have some of the biggest companies in Australia as clients, so I assumed they were good!

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    My guarantee is this: I guarantee to do everything to your website that I have done on all these other websites to get them ranked. I will then give the potential client a list of my current clients to call to verify. If anyone promises you anything more than that, you are probably being scammed.
    Thanks, great advice!

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    SEO is not a great hail mary play, our goal is to provide a positive return on our clients investment, if we can make you rich, that's cool but the truth is if you spend a dollar and we earn you 2 back you have to be satisfied with that.
    And I am not asking anyone to "make me rich", I just need some help with my sites and then I need someone to help with SEO. I also would like to find someone who knows adwords and webmaster. I am not sure that I am asking too much, maybe just the wrong questions........?

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    Here's another truth: You are in an industry dominated by scammers, spammers, rip off artists and con men. They are really, really, REALLY good at what they do and they are spending big money "to rank top 3 for 4-5 keywords, have 6-8 quality scores and have two sites that work well to sell the public" You are probably not going to get anywhere on $800 a month.
    Well I guess I have my work cut out for me! As for the $800 a month, this is the price I was (was) given for what I asked for. What should I have done?
    If they are paying big money for 1-3, then I might have to aim a bit lower, maybe 3-9.....? I would be happy to be there too.

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    I would not take the work because I don't see a positive return on your investment with the budget you want to dedicate to the project.
    And here I was just about to ask if you would work with me...........

    KP please don't get me wrong, I appreciate all advice given, thanks! I am not sure if it has come from a good place or your ego, but either way thanks.
    Here is my other site if you would like to take me apart on that too......lol kinglypet . com.
  14. #23
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    Originally Posted by Doodled
    It's a fair point - I have some experience with Aloe Vera and I know the quality (and the price) of similar looking products varies dramatically. You can buy a bottle of Aloe to drink from one brand and it will costs you a few dollars while another brand will set you back $50.
    I also agree, I think this is an issue with every industry (including seo).
    I just have to build a good foundation and keep my clients based on a more superior product.

    Originally Posted by Doodled
    The problem remains with natural products that they battle against large pharmaceutical companies who don't like having their profitable prescription drug revenue rattled and the FDA is completely screwed up in the way it polices the market.
    Yup, agree! These HUGE companies control the FDA and step on little guys like me all the time.
    At the end of the day I don't want to be Pfizer, I just want to sell enough product to do what I need to do.

    Originally Posted by Doodled
    So for every 1 good alternative health product there are 99 useless scam products, even in the same field. So how are you going to prove yours?
    Great question!

    Originally Posted by Doodled
    But it could be that SEO is a red herring. Why don't you concentrate on taking your product to where the market is rather than trying to get the market to come to you - i.e. Amazon, ebay, etc.?
    We are on Amazon and will get ebay sorted soon (it is on the list). At the end of the day I don't consider ranking on google as "trying to get the market to come to you", I feel having a good presence on goole will help attract third party sellers etc.

    Originally Posted by Doodled
    I also see your budget as too low considering how competitive the market is.
    So what should my budget be then?
  16. #24
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    Just my 2 cents worth, hope some of it might be of some help.
    Gold, thanks! I really appreciate the info you have offered!
    All the best with your site in the future!
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    All you need to do is optimize your site for the keywords your after then get back links working in your favor. Like I said earlier, your targeting the name not the product...pretty much site wide. You should also be aware it can take 4 to 6 months to start ranking.

    Hiring one of those huge companies...They have a few costumers paying 2 k a month and you at 4 or 5 hundred, what sites do you think are going hold their attention? It won't be yours, which could be the reason why you only went up 4 positions in 6 months. But then it could be your site was hit with any number of algo changes this year.
  20. #26
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    Originally Posted by Test-ok
    All you need to do is optimize your site for the keywords your after then get back links working in your favor. Like I said earlier, your targeting the name not the product...pretty much site wide. You should also be aware it can take 4 to 6 months to start ranking.
    Gold, thanks! I will be on the hunt for good quality back-links for the sites I own. I am happy with 4-6 months.
    Before this I would love to have the sites really bloody working well! I fell both my sites could have a make-over.
    Maybe add a new top half to the antlervelvet site homepage, change the call to actions etc.
    So as much as I need traffic, I really want the site to be gold once they arrive.

    Originally Posted by Test-ok
    Hiring one of those huge companies...They have a few costumers paying 2 k a month and you at 4 or 5 hundred, what sites do you think are going hold their attention? It won't be yours, which could be the reason why you only went up 4 positions in 6 months. But then it could be your site was hit with any number of algo changes this year.
    Yup, learnt that pretty quick...lol
    That is why I am looking for advice in places like this. I feel there will be more genuine people here that will look beyond the money for 5 minutes to help, and they are!
  22. #27
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    Originally Posted by Novice
    I am not here for a pissing competition KP
    That's the way I took it when you said:
    I have asked for guarantees and all I get is “well it is hard because umm, well umm, Goggle might not umm, blah, blah, blah”. None of the companies were willing to stand behind their work.
    I understand things change, panda etc, but I am not happy knowing that half of these companies outsource anyway.
    SEO is exactly like any other profession, there are good ones and there are bad ones. I would say that most of the "bad ones" outsource. If you put your mind to it you will be able to find a qualified SEO who will do a good job for you. Throwing the profession under the bus because you hired poorly is not nice.

    Originally Posted by Novice
    I am happy to pay for a service, but only a service that works!
    Do you ask about outsourcing before you start? Hell, you should not be afraid to ask anything, YOU ARE THE CLIENT.

    Let's start over, I will read your original question like this:
    I have a product that I am passionate about but I have had a hard time finding a good SEO / SEM Manager who will:
    • Explain to me what is being done
    • Send me reports that make me feel like I am getting my money's worth
    • treat me with dignity and respect
    • give me a positive return on my investment


    Please give me tips on how to hire one of you blokes (is blokes just AU?) to give a hand

    See isn't that better than coming to an SEO board and "ranting" at everyone?
    Last edited by KernelPanic; Jan 7th, 2013 at 02:40 AM.
  24. #28
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    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    That's the way I took it when you said:
    Wow, I am deeply sorry if you looked at it that way, but at no point have I said that the whole industry is a sham!
    I think I recall you banging on about my industry and all the "cons" and nothing else!
    Regardless of the way you interpreted my post, there are some monkeys in this industry, and every industry, and I seem to have found a couple of them.
    I am explaining MY experiences here, nothing more. The fact you have jumped down my throat and are getting defensive is a little unnecessary!
    Why would I come on a site dedicated to SEO and bag SEO?
    I know I need it, but I am having trouble wit it, that is all.

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    SEO is exactly like any other profession, there are good ones and there are bad ones. I would say that most of the "bad ones" outsource. If you put your mind to it you will be able to find a qualified SEO who will do a good job for you. Throwing the profession under the bus because you hired poorly is not nice.
    Well "I put my mind to it" and landed here.
    When did I "throw the industry under the bus"? If I was going to bag "the industry", why the hell would I do it here?
    Seems like a pretty silly thing to do.
    The fact you have jumped to said conclusion makes me wonder what your motives are, but I am lost either way. If you want to tell me to bugger off, just bloody tell me, don't harp on about something I never really said!
    Please don't go on at me to try get back at me or something................?

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    Do you ask about outsourcing before you start? Hell, you should not be afraid to ask anything, YOU ARE THE CLIENT.
    Yup, but only found out later on that they did. A little white lie that I believed, sorry!
    It is pretty easy to give someone the run around that knows less than you about said subject. The fact I trusted them is my fault, but at what point do you trust?

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    Let's start over, I will read your original question like this:
    Why? Just read it without assumption!

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    I have a product that I am passionate about but I have had a hard time finding a good SEO / SEM Manager who will:
    • Explain to me what is being done
    • Send me reports that make me feel like I am getting my money's worth
    • treat me with dignity and respect
    • give me a positive return on my investment


    Please give me tips on how to hire one of you blokes (is blokes just AU?) to give a hand
    Blokes is English, so I guess it followed the Union Jack.....?
    It was not my intention to come here to hire anyone, it was to get advise on how to hire someone.
    If I find someone here, great!

    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    See isn't that better than coming to an SEO board and "ranting" at everyone?
    Nope!
    Sorry KP, but opinions are like arse-holes, everyone has got one!
    The fact that your opinion is different to mine is your issue, not mine! I said what I was feeling and am fine with that.
    I have a great respect for the industry and love the idea of what is done to make a site work.
    I first used a computer when I was around 18/19 and couldn't copy and paste without asking someone. Now I have a HUGE appreciation of what really goes in to this online action. Now when I look at a site I can see things that I had never seen, I love it.
    The fact I don't know as much as you is ok in my opinion KP.

    So again, I am soooo sorry if you have taken my post to heart, but maybe just don't follow it next time..............?
    This is just getting off track, if you are only interested in getting up me, then please just PM me so this can be left to it's original purpose.

    Comments on this post

    • Doodled agrees : I just agree that there is nothing like a good rant!
    • KernelPanic agrees : All good brother, no worries.
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    All good brother, no worries. Does that stuff work to relieve jumping to conclusions? Give me a double! lol
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    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    All good brother, no worries. Does that stuff work to relieve jumping to conclusions? Give me a double! lol
    Thanks KP............lol

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