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    Question Trying to work out how spammy something is


    If you do a search on Google uk for 'web design london', you will see that web kitchen comes up top. (Not based in London myself by often look at the sites which rank in big locations for R+D)

    If you look as a visitor, it looks fab, and in the source the h1 is near the top. But they have used absolute positioning to shift the h1 into a scrolling marquee to the bottom of the rendered page.

    To me this is 100% spammy (Google has said it does not like this sort of thing..)

    Does anyone hear think this is a good way to go, or its something best not done..

    The second part to this post...

    So in an ideal world you would have the h1 at the top of the page, some p, h2's and p's etc..

    With Html5 we have the tag <header> so you end up with

    <header><h1><p's><section/article><h's><p's>

    From experience I know although Google will accept multiple h1's, it only really takes notice of the first one...

    What Im unclear with is the role of <header> in the ranking process...

    idea 1 - <header> and <footer> are considered as 'page content' and therefore when you are constructing seo content you need to make sure the 'seo' is spread over the entire source code (including header).
    idea 2 - <header> is considered a hint for the content in <section/article> and therefore the important h's for seo need to be in the <section/article>

    Now the reason this is important...

    with idea 1, you would want a <h1> as your first line in the source (after <header>), with as little furniture before getting into the article., you would also have the <h> in the section as a <h2> and not <h1> because that's already been specified.

    With idea 2, you would avoid <h's> in the <header> and only start SEO markup in the <section/article>, but this would mean the seo may be below the fold... (But Google would be 'ignoring' the header part so its not so much of a concern.)

    In my main site I have followed idea 1 and its been quite successful, but there are sites out ranking me, which are following more the idea 2.

    I want the site Im working on to be more design orientated, but its important it ranks well.

    I use a couple of technical SEO products which look at on-page content, but they scan as a whole so don't give the breakdown of <header> v <section> etc.. So although I get a lot of green 'ticks' I'm wondering if Im missing the point..

    Advise would be welcome.
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    Well, where do I start...

    Ok your mentioning of multiple h1 tags on a html5 doc.... I think you are over analyzing it, and it is fine as long as you do it correctly.

    Matt Cutts on the matter... watch the vid.. quite short but to the point.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5...layer_embedded

    The <header> tag, it should be your intro to the page or section.
    Technically, each section in a html5 doc, supports a header section. Use it to do what it does. it simply introduces the sectioned content. Be it a single page with no additional sections or a page with multiple sections. each supporting it's own set of h tags.

    Now what happens is just like in sports, there are superstar athletes and those players shine, not your run of the mill players,all the lesser players get traded away to other teams... on the net, you get folks creating spammy webpages using this doc type, not everyone is a Pro Content Writer or Designer for that matter. So if you create spammy content, abusing the above mentioned tags, then yes, it will hurt your ability to rank the page. If on the other hand you write some top notch content, correctly formatted then all the issues go away, and you will be one step ahead of your competition.

    Just my two cents
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    Thanks for your reply. Do you think web kitchen are being spammy with their approach? And as a second point do you think Google is following HTML5 semantic when it comes to their ranking? (i.e. <article/section> contains the 'web page content' and therefore is considered more important than what would be under <header>?)
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    Think how a libary lists content and follow suite, if you don't know how libraries categorizes content try searching it.
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    I get how HTML5 should work, but my question is to do with how Google evaluates <header> v <section/article> on the basis

    <header></header>
    <section></section>
    <footer></footer>

    Thanks in advance.

    Comments on this post

    • KnowOneSpecial : this is wrong, sorry
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    Forgot to say, its fine if no one knows, but Im just curious and though the tests can tell either way... Also would be interested in the example page Im speaking about and how spammy it is...
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    No offense, but I don't think you understand html5 correctly.

    The article element | HTML5 Doctor
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    No offence taken as I don't think anyone does.. lol

    And to be honest that besides the question, its to do with how Google treats the subject...
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    LOL... ok

    My personal opinion is Yes, Google understands html5 correctly and gives each tag its' due weight.

    I just think your premise of how you interpret html5 is incorrect, therefore you will arrive at faulty conclusions.

    But that is just my humble opinion. .
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    What Im trying to ask... if you look at https:// www. developer.com/lang/understanding-the-proper-way-to-lay-out-a-page-with-html5 .html (remove the spaces) you see the header at the top of the markup with section underneath.

    How is Google treating the 'top' header verses the content in the section?

    If you was in html4 mode, you would be tempted to put your h1 into the header and then put the rest of the body copy into the section..

    If Google was to see this as html5, it should start ranking the page based only whats contained in the section as the other aspects on the page are 'supporting' content. In other words h tags are not needed in the header and all your seo content should be close together in section.

    Where it gets complicated is that this means your SEO content wont be close to the top of the source unless you take the route web kitchen has..

    In test I have done (html4 and 5) the closer the h1 to the top of the source has a drastic effect on ranking, but it leads to weird and clumsy looking pages.

    To me this then becomes a simple question, not sure where I am going wrong in the way Im asking it..
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    Yes, I agree with you that certain tags are given more weight the closer to the top of the dom the tag is... so...

    If each section can have an article and each article can have a header then the closer each tag (for seo purposes ) is to the top of it's appropriate section the the more weight it is given, on a section by section basis.

    So each h1 tag that is closer to the top of entire dom, the more seo value it has, or is given. Then the h1 tag closest to the top has more weight than any succeeding h1 tag. The second h1 tag in the next section will be given more seo value than the 1st h2 tag that appears on the page. This get complicated and hard to visualize.

    Imagine... (i I will leave out the "<" and ">" for clarity)...
    The 2nd h1 has more seo value than the 1st h2 , and this proceeds down the page. Which I might add, follows the concept of the closer to the top of the document, the more weight it has in terms of seo value. Does this make it clearer ?? If you were to look at each article as if it were a single separate page, then it is easier to conceptualize. Also realize not all pages need this type of layout, nor does it make sense to do so in all cases.
    If you were to take a online newspaper site for example, then this layout will make perfect sense.
    Remember in M. C.'s vid, he explains exactly as such, with his hand movement, LOL.

    body
    section
    article
    h1 (1st )
    content on page
    h2 (1st)
    more content
    article
    article
    h1 (2nd)
    content on page
    h2 (2nd)
    more content
    article
    section
    footer
    body
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    That part I get (and had done before..), but to be honest its a little away from where the question started..

    To me what web kitchen is doing on a google seo front is dodgy...

    And as a second part what I am trying to quantify is..

    If you have a header at the top of the site (no matter what tag its actually in.) if you put an h1 tag 'web design london' massive gap in code before you get into the page copy... having another h1 'web design london' is going to look spammy so one of them should go...

    Should the h1 at the top go (because its far away from the body copy and Google might not see the content as linked) or is having the h1 in the 'header' is a better advantage even though visually its crap and in the markup its far away from the related copy?

    You could say in the body copy we will play it safe with an h2, but your still seeing 'web design london', being seen twice in h tags..

    Now forgetting about adjusting the phrase so its not a duplicate, which is going to give the better result?

    Does this now make any sort of sense.. (i.e. does google value higher up markup so much more that its better to have the h1 high and separated from the body copy verses it being further down and there with the body copy.)
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    Ok,, I see your confusion... by this picture...

    The article explicitly shows a header section independent of the other sections. What it doesn't show, except for the first section, is that the other sections can have, each in their own right a <header> </header> included.
    So in this instance the pink header section you see at the top, pertains to the whole doc and is used to introduce the entire page. Each successive header, as show in the pink heading under the section, would introduce the individual sections of the page. Each would then be weighted for there own merit. Each would also according to current SEO theory, would provide less and less return.

    The page, from the site, you used I agree it is lacking ... not how I would do it.
    Is it spammy, well that is a matter of opinion.
    I suppose for them it's working, and bringing in the bacon. As you stated, it looks good to the human eye. Are they coding the page correctly, I think so and Google is rewarding them for it.

    edited to add...
    Where it gets complicated is that this means your SEO content wont be close to the top of the source unless you take the route web kitchen has..
    Maybe that is the issue, you are to focused on SEO content and not content for the user.
    Remember Google's Quality Control mechanisms are human beings, as such they make the decision on what is quality, not us.

    Last edited by KnowOneSpecial; Nov 13th, 2017 at 01:30 PM. Reason: addendum
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    Personally I prefer render to follow the same order as the un-styled.. The idea of pushing for instance the header to the bottom of the markup for an SEO advantage seem wrong, but I think until Google cracks down on this sort of misuse you are left to either use hacks yourself or potentially loose rank. (I think its spammy because you are basically feeding Google a different version of the page than a normal visitor...)

    I'm going to test my cleaner theme (with a couple of the ideas we have explored here) to see what sort of results I get. With any luck it will rank well and I can put to bed..
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    On a side note...

    I sometimes use css to change the order of appearance of some divs. Especially when displaying on a mobile device.

    For example, you have a 3 column layout, and to make it look aesthetically pleasing. On a desktop the order is a, b, c and it looks balanced and corect, but when you view it on a mobile device you may see that a,c,b looks more aesthetic. So css positioning works for you. Google sees what you're doing and doesn't slap you for it.

    I take it TWK is one of your competitors.?!?!
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