Page 6 - The Sticky for Meta Description, keywords, keyword density, and title tags

I am not tying to put words in your mouth... but are you advocating that Content is irrelevant? That Back links are so powerful that it does not matter what a web page is really about, because back links will trump content?

Oh.. on thing I forget to address...

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I am not advocating playing "Sillybugger", as you call it... I do not think that SEO's should lock themselves in the basement like an alchemist trying to conjure up the perfect keyword density like the mythical philosopher's stone...

I am only advocating that ignoring the keyword density (or keyword frequency if that is a more appealing term) is a mistake. To little makes your page less relevant to much can be mistaken for trying to manipulate SERP's.

You can have desktops, laptops, servers, notebooks, PC, Macintosh, towers, etc. never mention the word "computers" and rank for "computers" with a 0% density... all because your domain is synonymous with "computers" by everyone that thinks you are about "computers" [thus link] even though you never say it (on site).

So no I'm not saying content is irrelevant... keyword density is... the "density of the keywords" in a page of text makes so little difference it's a moot point algorithm-wise.

<added>BTW take a look at the density of the top 10 for "computers"... half of them don't use the word at all.</added>

You are only "guessing that"... in practical application the number of "keywords" on a page will never get you in the top 20 for anything remotely useful for traffic...

Link anchors will, title element will, and even page headers... ignoring these will be catastrophic, ignoring the number of times a phrase is on a page is actually beneficial.

I agree with you in situation like these, I know you are refering to the classic example of dell computers... I have heard it used a million times.. and in this case it this may be true...

But these are huge corporations with a half million backlinks.. so obviously the relevance of the content is diluted my the overwhelming number of backlinks...

But I do not think that you can give this same advice to a local auto repair shop... On sites with less competition, on page factors become much more important.

Also Google has said it themselves... There main goal is to server the person who is searching by providing the most relevant results. If you are looking "stuterville vacuum repair" then Google will consider if the term was used once, a few times or 100 times in a website.. and most of these sites won't have hundreds of thousand of backlinks to reduce the relevancy.

When this conversation began, I have to admit that I was insulted by your comments, at first you came of as very rude and aggressive and I though you were only looking to pick a fight. But now I can see you are just passionate about the SEO, as am I. So I want to let you know that I do respect your opinions, and I think that we agree very closely on almost every point...

But if I can, I would like to ask you one simple question and I would like to request that you provide only a answer and no debate, just this one time... then we can continue debating this topic all you want.

If every other factor was the same...

And you had to choose a website based solely the frequency of your keyword...

Which website would you choose (Please be honest)

1) A website that only uses your keyword 1 time

2) A website that uses your keyword a few times in a natural way

3) A website that uses your keyword 100 times... once in every sentence.

Please don't avoid the question...

You'll be #1 in that case, and then #101, and then #55, and then 23, and then 97, and then 74...



Being absolutely honest... baiting the question is idiotic.

If the only way you can prove a point is "by removing said example from the natural environment you work in"... how is that SEO?

My honest answer would be "when you come back to reality - make sure you are on the upside of unequal with better links on your side".

If you really desire me to answer... I can't... I've never come across a situation as you noted... (I don't like guessing) ...have you?

Please visit Wikipedia and read up on "Scientific Method", then you will have a better understanding of the importance and the logic of addressing a criteria in such a isolated manner.

Sorry but I think you might be missing the point. There are many factors that influence ranking and some are more important than others.

IMHO if you spend any more that 0.5 seconds thinking about the correct keyword density for a site then you are wasting your time. For every hour that you will spend doing this I will spend getting links creating content and will beat you every time.

Until you have every possible link that is out there to get then don't waist your or your clients time and money. Its possible to strip paint by gently rubbing a piece of wood with tissue paper but wouldn't it be better to use sand paper?

Hey Fathom...

First you verbally bash me when I was not even talking to you, just because you disagree with me then you imply profanity **#@, then you imply I am a moran... Then when I think you are finally starting to have a mature discussion with me, I find our that you are trying to "Punish Me" for disagreeing with you by giving me -56 reputation points...

That is so low... I just can't believe that this sort of behavior is permitted on this forum... you know that one of the first things I noticed before I joined this forum is someone complaining about you being rude and cruel to other people... and sadly another user responed by making excuses for your behavior because you have been here for awhile.. and have posted a lot... well to me this is not excuse.

Bottom line is, you know that I am new to this forum and I can't give you negative reputation in return. I think is is sad than you prey on people that have no way to defend themselves and that you think it is OK to be rude to others, just because you disagree with them or you think you know more than them.... If you think you know it all, then why don't you share some HARD FACTS and KNOWLEDGE with others instead of treating people badly.

I joined this forum to contribute and to have intelligent conversions with other SEOs and developers... I can see from your profile that you are not a young kid, but a mature adult, so I don't think it is to much to ask that you treat others with the same respect that you would want yourself... I also think people should feel safe to voice there opinions with out being punished by people like you, without a good reason.

I have not disrespected you or done anything offensive to you... I have only tried to have a conversation with you, which I had hoped would be intellectually stimulating and mutually beneficial.

Thanks for the "Respectful" response... I agree with you that it is not something that people should invest a lot of time into and I also know that there are many other factors that should occupy an SEOs time...

I just was trying to make Fathom understand that Keyword frequency can make a difference with smaller, less competitive keywords and websites. I have worked with many business owners who don't even have thier keyword anywhere on their website... and I have also worked with those who have shoved it in every page 50 times, thinking that this helps..

Obviously I disagreed with you initial posts - and if I may, on the side of bashing... "YOU BASHED ME" didn't you? With your side of mouth claim that "I (your reference to some SEOs) am merely making blanket statements to end the discussion"... I've actually embraced the discussion and in the same side of mouth comment I didn't call you a moron... if you inferred that from my comments maybe you should review your own comments for unintentional slurs.

...People often get what they deserve in return.

As for know it all... I've shared hundreds, even thousands of hours that you just haven't spent any time reading.

I work with many SEOs and they with many customers and my advice is always the same... "start with what helps the most and work down"...

If you run out of links, start on Title Elements, Page Titles and Internal Negative.

SEO is about "results"... you don't get results from stuffing a page with words or having none and if you actually tested your assumptions you would know the center (your natural keyword density) isn't any better for results.

...and if you don't like my "hard lesson comments" you may wish to travel over to DP forums... they don't care how accurate advice is there.

Here is the thing... as I have said more than once in my posts... you were not even involved in the conversation when I said "some SEOs make blanket statements to end the discussion"... Many SEOs do make blanket statements to avoid discussing things... obviously this is not you, because we have been discussing this topic for a while now... in no way did I ever imply any of my statement had anything to do with you!

As I stated before, I am new to this forum and I thought that this was an open conversion, where people would want to openly discuss SEO... I don't even know who you are, and I have no need to be disagreeable with you, because I don't even know what you believe (except that you obviously and passionately disagree with me about keyword frequency).

The one thing that I can say is that I have been visiting SEOChat for a long time, and I finally decided to get involved... I NEVER EXPECTED ANYONE WOULD TREAT ME THIS WAY... I thought this would be a positive experience... Honestly I am just exhausted with all the arguments...

Listen Fathom...

If you have advice to share, then I am here to listen to you...

If I disagree with you, I will say so.... I won't be disrespectful, I don't think it is anyone's place on the forum to give "HARD LESSONS" to anyone else... If you have something to share... then share it.... if you disagree, then state why you disagree... but there is no need for all the other nonsense! We are all professionals here!

This is an open dialect, one person not agreeing with you does not amount to an argument.

Would you rather be humored and given the wrong advice or challenged with the view to furthering your understanding?

This is a great forum for that exact reason. If you make a claim you had better be to back it up