Thread: Perplexed

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  1. Dinosaur
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    Perplexed


    After thoughts on this one, it might be a long one.

    2 x Domains 5 years+

    domain.com & domain.co.uk The .com site was the main site and the .co.uk was 301 to the .com. More to preserve brand in the UK market. Everything was going well and managed to overtake the market leader in SERPS. Then a negative SEO campaign started and the site got de-indexed, and I do mean de-indexed even searching for brand did not find the site.

    I thought long and hard on what to do, of course I wanted to get the .com out of penity but realised that was going to take a while so decided to split the 2 domains as the brand had become known. The .com domain to be honest is pretty bad and over engineered (backend) and is way to complex.

    The .co.uk domain I started from scratch and wrote a brand new site from the grown up, not a single line of code was used from the .com site except for some low level graphic libraries I had written.

    One interesting thing I noticed after putting the .co.uk site live was the page rank was the same as the .com so google knew it was the same and the new site had inherited the PR value. However since they have stopped updating the PR it could be a red herring and google's internal PR value could be very different but still sows the old toolbar rank.

    After 10 months of disavowing, emails logging etc we finally got the penalty lifted from the .com site back in Novemeber last year.

    SERPS all came back although lower and orders started to flow again but of course at a reduced rate. Typically where we was in the top 3 positions we are now on page 2 or 3 so no surprise really as we had to remove so many links.

    The .co.uk domain though is rising nicely, although not many backlinks yet the site structure is far better and mobile friendly, most days we are moving up in SERPS across many long tail keywords and in many cases beating the .com domain.

    Once I am totally happy with the .co.uk site my thoughts are to 301 the .com to the .co.uk or I may leave it as a corperate type site with links to the country site .co.uk (not decided yet)

    Now here is the problem

    There is 2 main keywords to both these sites, (singular and plural) widget, widgets these are responsible for maybe up to 90% of the sites traffic. The .com is page 2 but the .co.uk is not in the top 100.

    Someone suggested to me I should upload the .com disavow file to the .co.uk site just in case the algo had the .co.uk site pinned with the .com but now the link is broken its been left being penalised for these 2 words. I did this about 2 weeks ago hoping we might pop into the top 100 but nothing so far has changed.

    The keyword is highly competitive so I dont expect things to happen over night, I know it took 4 years of hard work to get it to the top of page 1 so I expect a simular time frame for the .co.uk but was hoping to be in the lower ranks by now.

    I am adding fresh content as quick as I can plus getting backlinks changed from .com to .co.uk where I can. Also seeking out new backlinks So I am pretty sure we are doing the right things

    So its not really a question this post but I am looking for thoughts, ideas, suggestions
  2. #2
  3. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    domain.com & domain.co.uk The .com site was the main site and the .co.uk was 301 to the .com. More to preserve brand in the UK market. Everything was going well and managed to overtake the market leader in SERPS. Then a negative SEO campaign started and the site got de-indexed, and I do mean de-indexed even searching for brand did not find the site.
    Will review the rest of your post but just because you can't find your domain in Google for a search of the domain or brands does not imply Negative SEO occurred.

    I have access to Google's Webspam team if I need it will rarely use it since I know Google as good as Google does.

    If I can access your WMT & Analytics accounts for these domain

    What evidence do you have of a negative SEO campaign has occurred?

    The fact that you cannot find your domain in search results is not evidence of anything specific. Your host server could be banned because of hacking and that can cause you issues by association but not because anyone targeted you.

    Yes negative SEO can occur but this could also be you accidentally banning user-agents from your IP.

    Negative SEO is the last thing to think about even if someone specifically threatened you.
    Last edited by fathom; Mar 8th, 2015 at 12:14 AM.
  4. #3
  5. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    One interesting thing I noticed after putting the .co.uk site live was the page rank was the same as the .com so google knew it was the same and the new site had inherited the PR value. However since they have stopped updating the PR it could be a red herring and google's internal PR value could be very different but still sows the old toolbar rank.
    This isn't Google that was you.

    Your dot.co.uk domain was a mirror of the dot.com this is called ghosting.

    If you 301 your domain to Wikipedia.org you will ghost them and their link profile and PageRank (the latter - if Google was still updated PR today)
  6. #4
  7. rod@missionop.com
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    First - if you had a Manual Review that was you doing a NEGATIVE SEO CAMPAIGN on yourself not someone else.

    Originally Posted by Chedders
    Now here is the problem

    There is 2 main keywords to both these sites, (singular and plural) widget, widgets these are responsible for maybe up to 90% of the sites traffic. The .com is page 2 but the .co.uk is not in the top 100.

    Someone suggested to me I should upload the .com disavow file to the .co.uk site just in case the algo had the .co.uk site pinned with the .com but now the link is broken its been left being penalised for these 2 words. I did this about 2 weeks ago hoping we might pop into the top 100 but nothing so far has changed.

    The keyword is highly competitive so I dont expect things to happen over night, I know it took 4 years of hard work to get it to the top of page 1 so I expect a simular time frame for the .co.uk but was hoping to be in the lower ranks by now.

    I am adding fresh content as quick as I can plus getting backlinks changed from .com to .co.uk where I can. Also seeking out new backlinks So I am pretty sure we are doing the right things

    So its not really a question this post but I am looking for thoughts, ideas, suggestions
    Honestly, you can not fix your issue with traditional link building. All external links provide is the link juice (PageRank) thus the reason you cannot seem to recover your holy grail terms.

    Hire me ($3000/month), I'll fix your problems inside 90 days then paid me to train you in how to do it all within Google's TOS ($5000 one opt fee) then you can reduce your fees to $1500/month but you need to bring in 2 other contracts also at $1500/month and you can charge them $3000/month (My customers are other SEOs only). That would mean you have SEO services for free PLUS earning $1500/month.

    OR $6750/month for at least 2 months to buy me out.
  8. #5
  9. rod@missionop.com
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    Note: even though Google is not publicly updating PageRank they are still using it.

    But PageRank is not TopicRank and that is what most SEOs never learned.

    Don't even need to look at your domain to know you will never recover because you never should have had those ranks in the first place. Thus nothing to recover.

    If you want to acquire them honestly - then look me up.
    Last edited by fathom; Mar 7th, 2015 at 11:11 PM.
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  11. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    So its not really a question this post but I am looking for thoughts, ideas, suggestions
    One last thought... everything I know is posted here in amongst the rubbish questions and answers. For the smart SEOs they can easily pull all the great wisdom out of my cryptic responses but trial & error has taught even me.

    When it is 100% PERFECTLY FREE most of the world will abuse it... so I don't thread the needle anymore for FREE!
  12. #7
  13. Dinosaur
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    WOW,fathom Loads of posts. I will read each post in detail and try and reply to them all later. I am just about to sit down with a young lad I am teaching how to code so dont have time now.

    Would just like to say though I do believe a negative campaign was in place (Jan 2014), we had so many links being built in such a short space of time and really crappy ones. If I am mistaken and it was our activity then that's fine, the end result was the same, We received a site wide manual penalty and it took a lot of effort to have this lifted but its done now so that part is history.

    As far as WMT is concerned there is now no issues on either site.

    Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
  14. #8
  15. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    WOW,fathom Loads of posts. I will read each post in detail and try and reply to them all later. I am just about to sit down with a young lad I am teaching how to code so dont have time now.

    Would just like to say though I do believe a negative campaign was in place (Jan 2014), we had so many links being built in such a short space of time and really crappy ones. If I am mistaken and it was our activity then that's fine, the end result was the same, We received a site wide manual penalty and it took a lot of effort to have this lifted but its done now so that part is history.

    As far as WMT is concerned there is now no issues on either site.

    Many thanks for taking the time to reply.
    I cannot dispute what you say only that if your results were built on a solid content oriented website your ranks would have remained.

    Google Webspam Team does not penalized websites that are obeying TOS so no matter what you claim your website violated their terms of service and not because a competitor hired a firm to drop you.

    Crappy links don't produce top results. For a Negative Campaign to work it must have ranked you first. That can be done in pieces you had webspam and they added more to the pile but generally Manual Actions come from Manual Reviews due to spam reports. Which is likely still a competitor but only reacting to your spamming.
    Last edited by fathom; Mar 8th, 2015 at 06:00 AM.
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  17. rod@missionop.com
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    One final note you will never reacquired those terms you desire as webspam made the difference so the only way to get them back is to webspam Google in a way they haven't considered is webspam yet.

    Or spent millions in content creation that provides honest to god natural links to build up your link juice so you can overtake the websites there now. You realize you have to do more than what the competitors are doing to beat them.
    Last edited by fathom; Mar 9th, 2015 at 04:20 PM.
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  19. Dinosaur
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    Sorry for the late reply.

    Fathom I think you picked up on me saying I believe there was a negative SEO campaign and ran with that. I was just trying to explain some of the background.
    How / why we received the penalty is maybe not relevant although I do have some pretty strong evidence there was one. .But its history so trying to move on.

    The question was
    2 linked domains via a 301 received a penalty,
    301 was removed to create 2 separate sites.
    Penalty was revoked and main site recovered
    The 2nd site however appears to remain in penalty.

    As there is no request reconciliation option within webmaster tools for the 2nd site nor has there ever been, of course google know the 2 sites where linked and I believe the penalty or some keyword filter applied to both to hold down the sites.

    Do you have any thoughts on how to check if a penalty is in place
  20. #11
  21. rod@missionop.com
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    First lets talk about manual reviews. Only a domain that is manual reviewed by the webspam team is affected. A manual review cannot jump to another domain just because it was 301 redirected.
    If the webspam team deemed your actions to manipulation were severe enough they may also manually rewiew the other domain but you would see that in WMT under manual review tab.

    Not achieving results the way your first domain achieved isn't a penalty.

    SEO practitioning is like driving with a blindfold on. You second guess yourself. Lack of results is the norm. Your first likely still has some unnatual links that were undetectable to humans and thus maintaining a much higher level of results where your second domain doesn't have those benefits simply because you are driving with a blindfold on and don't wish to accidentally drive off the road again.

    I'm merely guessing - but my experience with bending Google's rules have proven me right more often than wrong.
    Last edited by fathom; Mar 14th, 2015 at 11:53 PM.
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  23. rod@missionop.com
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    Also i suspect you are not being influence by PENGUIN.

    Ranks naturally occur based on Onpage Optimization merits and internal links (your site's structure) all external links were meant to do was to toss GAS on the fire. PageRank is a powerful tool to help in ranks but like GAS it cannot define anything other than the power to move. If you have a steep incline like a very competitive landscape it cannot move up even if it has superior power over other donains simply because they have a better site structure and you can't over take them.
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  25. Dinosaur
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    Many thanks for your reply.

    In my eyes its more about the ability of the site to rank not its position at this moment in time.
    Currently webmaster tools shows 5404 pages indexed and my money words in keywords position 2 & 3 under content keywords.

    In my eyes anyway its shows me these money words are important to the site while I see less common phrases on page 1 or 2.
    I fully appreciate these are not as competitive so easier to rank. I am now getting concerned about over optimizing the site for these target words chasing any position within SERPS
  26. #14
  27. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by Chedders
    Many thanks for your reply.

    In my eyes its more about the ability of the site to rank not its position at this moment in time.
    Currently webmaster tools shows 5404 pages indexed and my money words in keywords position 2 & 3 under content keywords.

    In my eyes anyway its shows me these money words are important to the site while I see less common phrases on page 1 or 2.
    I fully appreciate these are not as competitive so easier to rank. I am now getting concerned about over optimizing the site for these target words chasing any position within SERPS
    Working on a workable solution for UK guys.

    Standby.
  28. #15
  29. rod@missionop.com
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    Originally Posted by fathom
    Working on a workable solution for UK guys.

    Standby.
    For those reading this I spent an hour talking to cheddars privately and gave him the basic understanding on how to develop within Google's TOS and still gain the ranks he needs.

    It isn't cheap and if you don't understand what you are doing it is very risky.

    If there are any other UK businesses that want to have a similar crack at this I am open to sharing the details. It is very important to not simply think you can go it alone as shared risk beats exclusive risk.

    It Is however up to you though.

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