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    Local Rank, Hilltop, Oldscore, Local Score?


    Can someone tell me in beginner to intermediate terms what each of these are referring to and how you feel they relate to each other (so that I may explain to my boss what may be going on in easy to understand terms). I did read Webby's excellant thread.

    So, what's your definition of (as much detail as you want to add):

    1. Local Rank:

    2. Hilltop:

    3. Oldscore (is this a theory Webby has just thought of or is it being talked about elsewhere? I don't recall hereing it talked about in other forums):

    4. Local Score (same as locak rank?)

    And how do you think they relate together (including PR) into the new algo if at all.

    Your time is much appreciated.
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    Chief

    Local Rank & Local Score - pretty much the same thing - they determine where you fit in the present SERPS after the latest update (Austin).

    Hilltop - an explaination of what happened after the next to last update (Florida)

    Oldscore - the resulting SERPS from Google prior to Austin.

    It looks like Oldscore multiplied by Localscore is what we are seeing in the SERPS right now.

    If Localscore is zero then you are gone from SERPS. Localscore is achieved by obtaining links to your keyword-target-page from other pages returned for that keyword. In other words, your competition.
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    Thanks Luke,

    But I was more looking for:

    How does Google determine your LocalRank (score)?

    How does Google determine your Oldscore? (does this have anything to do with PR or does PR even fit into all this)?

    How does Hilltop work?

    Sorry if I seem a pain, but I am probably not the only one kind of confused on how each of these scores are actually derived and they just don't want to ask

    This part also confuses me:
    "Localscore is achieved by obtaining links to your keyword-target-page from other pages returned for that keyword. In other words, your competition."

    I could show countless keywords were none of the sites in the top 20 are interlinking in any way.
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    ok, well I think I have gotten a good grasp on Hilltop now.

    "In contrast to PageRankô, Google's Hilltop algorithm determines the relevance and importance of a specific web page determined by the search query or keyword used in the search box."

    So from what I understand Hilltop incorporate "intelligence" actually trying to understand what a page is actually about (theme) and which sites are deemed "experts" or authorities on that subject. But now I am trying to figure our just how a site is deemed an EXPERT in the hilltop model. But this probably fits into Webby's thread a great deal. To become an expert you need lots of content on the subject and links from other sites on the same subject.

    Would it be fair to say that HILLTOP is all about themes (both on site and from links coming into the site)?

    I am just thinking out loud here and thought I would post it here anyway. Feel free to jump in if you want ;)
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    We've two things, a Paper called Hilltop and a nameless Patent sometimes referred to as LocalScore.
    Both calculate a new scoring system based on links from identified topical "experts", and call this score Localscore(The Patent) or Target score (Hilltop).
    Old score is a topicality/relevance score based on existing parameters.

    The two are very similar, but differ in how they choose their respective "experts", which would give very different results.
    A common perception is that both may be implemented/amalgamated in some way.

    http://www.cs.toronto.edu/%7Egeorgem/hilltop/

    http://www.searchguild.com/redir/o.p...0&RS=6,526,440

    <added> Chief, rather than theme, we should be thinking topic.
    Last edited by glengara; Feb 5th, 2004 at 12:29 PM.
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    glengara

    Chief, rather than theme, we should be thinking topic.
    Good point, I agree.

    I believe too much credit is given to Google for the implementation of the algo that results in the present state of confusion. It may be an over-simplification but I like to think of it as the calculation of two different Pageranks. The first Pagerank is largely responsible for the Oldscore SERPS (pre Austin). Those pages returned for Oldscore are zeroed for Pagerank and then a new Pagerank is assigned for each page, based upon the linking patterns between those pages returned for that keyword. Of course, this keyword Pagerank = (Localrank) = (Localscore) is only valid for a particular keyword.

    Another way of putting it is as follows:

    Pagerank is the macrocosmic view of the web - the big picture.
    Keyword Pagerank is the microcosmic view - the small picture for one keyword or search term.
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    Let me know if I have this wrong but Local Score is largely based on the "interconnectivity" (crosslinking) between site on the same topic?

    But it must be linking between sites based on a certain data set for a given keyword phrase (hence the need to link with competitors). The "inter connectivity of pre-florida SERPs"

    I still have a problem on how Google could actually know what exactly would be considered "on-topic" though.

    If I have a site about bikes, could I link with sites about scooters?

    Secondly, I have a site that that has a link exchange directory where i do reciprocal links with sites on ALL subjects. This site is doing very well in the search engines. Granted I have many incoming links that are from similiar topic websites but many of them are NOT at all.

    Lastly, if the key to getting a high local score is to link with site that previously ranked well in pre-florida SERPs for a particular keyword, how the heck do you know what they were since the rankings are all different now?

    For a high local score should we know try and exchange with sites listed high for our particular keyword post-austin (seems most competitors would not want to do this because there rankings are already high).

    Maybe I am just confusing myself.
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    OK, since I got Luke to agree on one thing, I feel on a roll, and will chance my arm on this one.... :-)

    PR as we knew it is dead, we now have Topic Sensitive Page Rank!
    http://dbpubs.stanford.edu:8090/pub/2002-6

    IMO, this is what both Hilltop and The Patent are designed to calculate, so on-topic links are in, "relevant" or off-topic links are out, or at least in as far as "promotional" factors are concerned.

    IMO excluding traditional PR from the new equation will make the playing field much more even, with Mom'n'Pop and speciality/niche sites getting a fair crack of the whip.

    <added> Chief, you've at least confused me ;-)
    Last edited by glengara; Feb 5th, 2004 at 02:42 PM.
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    glengara :-) sorry, but I beg to differ.

    PR is alive and well. You will need to have PR to get into the topic sensitive sort that determines the present SERPS.

    Chief - every page is (should be) optimized for a particular keyword (search term). You make the page Google-pleasing and Google places it in the pre-Austin pool, then throws Localrank into the mix.

    To find out who is in the pool, search with allintext:keyword. Look for pages that are lower that yours. Explain the need for topic-sensitive linking. It is a Win-Win situation. Convince enough of them to link to you and you will be smiling. Also, imo, I would not be afraid of reciprocal links. Make sure your incoming link is to your target page.
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    Luke,

    allintext:keyword puts one of our sites in position #3. Yet, in reality (read: the real results), this site is nowhere to be found.

    I think that the Topic Sensitive Page Rank is used to get you in the initial "ball park" and then perhaps on page factors (read: allintext:keyword) determine where you will be seated.

    IMHO
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    I knew it was too good to last ;-)
    Luke, up to now, AFAIK, the received wisdom was that PR was only factored in after page relevancy (OldScore) was computed.
    If Hilltop/The Patent (TSPR) are implemented, where does that leave traditional PR?
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    mcdar,

    I have already done this test and have seen the result. I linked to a competitor who, like me, had disappeared. Two days later he was back in the SERPS, not as high as formally, but back in. What he needs are more links from within the pre-Austin pool.

    If you were #3 based on pre-Austin criteria then a few links from within the pre-Austin pool and I predict you will see your page climbing in the present SERPS.
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    glengara,

    In a previous post I mentioned that I believe the Hilltop algo is flawed. It suggests that the present algo is made up of PR + Localrank.

    This has to be incorrect because too many high PR pages disappeared completely from the SERPS. If, on the other hand, the correct formula has PR times Localrank then the reason for the disappearance of high PR pages is clear. Those pages had zero Localrank. I checked a few of them and the page PR was mostly from internal links. Internal links do not count for Localrank unless there is the case of multiple pages from the same domain for the same keyword.

    BTW, I do not consider myself an expert. My site circumstances were such that I knew immediately why my pages disappeared and immediately set out to prove my suspicions. This stuff has been bouncing around inside my head ever since my shock and dismay.
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    Luke,

    We will get a chance to see if this theory is true. As of today, the page I spoke of has only ONE incoming link, that Google has acknowledged. The next time G updates links there will be plenty of "same topic" links added.

    We'll see if this gets us into the "ball park".
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    Luke, just to put a marker down, IMO, there are no experts anymore, we're in a totally new ball game, and I'll reiterate, I'm arguing this strictly theoretically.
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