#16
  1. Super Moderator
    SEO Chat Genius (4000 - 4499 posts)

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    4,494
    Rep Power
    1898
    Think about what he's really saying - work too hard on your SEO and you'll start moving down the ranks instead of up.

    So..... too much manipulation is a bad thing......

    Hmmm..... that sounds oddly familiar..... and isn't that what they've been working on for the last 14 years?

    Comments on this post

    • elliott agrees
  2. #17
  3. No Profile Picture
    EGOL
    SEO Chat Mastermind (5000+ posts)

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    9,758
    Rep Power
    2459
    I remember watching a state championship track meet. In the 10,000 meters the favored runner was a guy who had won the event his freshman, sophomore and junior years. Now in his senior year he was the overwhelming favorite. The fastest time run by the second place runner was much slower than the champion's typical time.

    When the gun went off the underdog got in behind the champion and hung there for a couple thousand meters. Then he made a move and passed the champion with authority. This could have been a bluff but it startled the champion. Noone had ever been in front of him! Alook of fear crept onto his face and his form started to fail. He ran the rest of the race behind the underdog with a grimace on his face and his arms and legs flailing. The underdog won with a winning time slower than the champion had run many times before.

    The underdog bluffed him out. The champion choked.

    I think that Google is losing their form. Facebook has them spooked. Now they are flailing.

    They were manipulated by paid links and demanded nofollows. Now nofollow is being used only on links sold by whitehat webmasters. The linksellers still don't use it.

    Nofollow is also being used by everybody everywhere who is trying to protect his position. Only the whitehats are passing pagerank freely. Google even nofollows legitimate links.

    They were embarrased by the JC Penny paid link attack for Christmas 2010 and the content farms sitting at topSERPs all over the web.

    So they start shooting wildly with Panda and their arrows are hitting a lot of good sites.

    Scrapers, spinners and spammers still pull in lots of traffic.

    Spam links still push garbage to the tops of difficult SERPs.
    http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-garbage-ranks-in-the-serps-a-case-study

    Google's latest there is to foist a censorship job onto free hosting services... http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2012/03/keeping-your-free-hosting-service.html

    Google could have solved that quietly by nuking the services, or tweaking their algo, or turning off the adsense for those sites (the post was written by an adsense team member).

    Today they are blustering about overly SEOed sites. Huh?

    They can't hear their coach yelling....

    "Relax... Relax.... Control your arms... Relax your jaw..... Land easy...... Focus... Focus... Good... Yes... Now accelerate slowly.

    [repeated intentionally] Today they are blustering about overly SEOed sites. Huh?

    Google needs to stop fighting manipulation.

    That is called flailing... (OMG the spammers are getting SERPs!).

    Manipulation will always be there. Remove what is being manipulated from the algo. Crank it out. Then focus on finding the good stuff instead of sniffing the tail.

    Google needs to relax, run gracefully and focus on promoting quality.

    Comments on this post

    • raz agrees : Matt Cutts needs to read this post instead of using his pulpit and big smile exaggerating Google’s capabilities in dealing with spam.
    • SEO_AM agrees : Excellent observation on human nature.
    • NewDelhiSEO agrees : A standing ovation. beautifuly explained sir.
    • KernelPanic agrees : Thanks for your insight Egol
    Last edited by EGOL; Mar 17th, 2012 at 12:16 PM.
    * "It's not the size of the dog in the fight that matters, it's the size of the fight in the dog." Mark Twain
    * "Free advice isn't worth much. Cheap advice is worth even less." EGOL
  4. #18
  5. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    SEO Chat Explorer (0 - 99 posts)

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    89
    Rep Power
    53
    So basically the old mantra 'content is king' that we have all had drilled in our heads since early SEO is ringing as true as it ever has. And that can only be a good thing IMO.

    I don't think Cutts statement means hard working white hat SEOs have anything to worry about, we just need to make sure we have quality content to back up our efforts, and that our efforts look as natural as possible. Natural looking content, natural link profile, natural looking social signals etc.

    I would love to know exactly what *new* factors or signals would be considered as 'over optimisation' though. Keyword stuffing etc is an obvious one but Google has been addressing these kind of obvious signals for ages, and most recently with Panda.

    I reckon aggressive, unnatural link building and link patterns - amongst others - will *increasingly* be addressed and in no particular order, specifics (arguably not new) such as:
    - unnaturally high % do follow IBL links vs no follow
    - unnaturally high % exact match keyword in IBL with little variation
    - unnaturally high % root link vs deep link (or vice versa)
    - unnaturally high % of any one type of link (for example 90% forum signature links)
    - unnaturally high link velocity without diversification

    Good news for white hats, bad news for black hats - with manual link building becoming the new grey hat (and with an increasing 'use with caution' warning).
  6. #19
  7. Contributing User
    SEO Chat Hero (2000 - 2499 posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    2,070
    Rep Power
    257
    IMHO; the biggest problem Google has is the fact it always plays catch up with every development, including its own algo updates.

    I can't remember a major update that Google came up with which was not immediately followed by spammers coming up with a whole load of spamming techniques! Way is it that Google can not proactively figure out the spamming techniques that can be used to manipulate an algo update before releasing the update?
    #include <Cognac.h> -The only code I know How to Write!
  8. #20
  9. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    SEO Chat Explorer (0 - 99 posts)

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    89
    Rep Power
    53
    Originally Posted by NewDelhiSEO
    But what about the new site on the block that has great content but non existent link profile? Can I build a ton of crap links to it and bring it down?

    So I will still stand by the original belief that external links SHOULD NOT hurt our Rankings.
    I both agree and disagree with this point and I think the difference lies between "link devaluation" and "penalties".

    IMO you get link devaluation from spammy links and external factors outside your control... so if a site builds a load of unnatural\spammy links (with or without their knowledge), it might give a temporary boost but eventually G will (hopefully) find these links and devalue them.. BUT the process of devaluation WILL hurt rankings and could look the same as a penalty.

    *Automatic* penalties on the other hand I think are applied to everything within a site owner's control - i.e. hidden links, doorway pages etc
  10. #21
  11. B afraid.. B very afraid!
    SEO Chat Mastermind (5000+ posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Land of enchantment... deserts of the Southwest
    Posts
    9,512
    Rep Power
    2250
    Originally Posted by raz
    ...Why is it that Google can not proactively figure out the spamming techniques that can be used to manipulate an algo update before releasing the update?
    This is a truism that prevails any time rules are implemented... 'rules are made to be broken'. There is no segment of society where the rules cannot be circumvented.
    ...Never mistake activity for achievement...

    ...Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it....
    Benjamin Franklin
  12. #22
  13. No Profile Picture
    EGOL
    SEO Chat Mastermind (5000+ posts)

    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Posts
    9,758
    Rep Power
    2459
    When google says.... "We are working our asses off to find the original publisher of superb content and promote him to the top of the SERPs and protect his position!.... We don't give a damn about how many links you have."..... That is when the web will be spammed with copious amounts of superb original content.

    Comments on this post

    • gazzahk agrees : lol...
    Last edited by EGOL; Mar 17th, 2012 at 12:30 PM.
  14. #23
  15. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    SEO Chat Explorer (0 - 99 posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    42
    Rep Power
    47
    Originally Posted by jsteele823
    Think about what he's really saying - work too hard on your SEO and you'll start moving down the ranks instead of up.

    So..... too much manipulation is a bad thing......

    Hmmm..... that sounds oddly familiar..... and isn't that what they've been working on for the last 14 years?
    Bingo! Google, in my opinion, is now just another dog chasing it's tail.
  16. #24
  17. the mango demon
    SEO Chat Adventurer (500 - 999 posts)

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    New Delhi
    Posts
    599
    Rep Power
    377
    Originally Posted by elliott
    I both agree and disagree with this point and I think the difference lies between "link devaluation" and "penalties".

    IMO you get link devaluation from spammy links and external factors outside your control... so if a site builds a load of unnatural\spammy links (with or without their knowledge), it might give a temporary boost but eventually G will (hopefully) find these links and devalue them.. BUT the process of devaluation WILL hurt rankings and could look the same as a penalty.

    *Automatic* penalties on the other hand I think are applied to everything within a site owner's control - i.e. hidden links, doorway pages etc
    yeah right. I mentioned that on Darren's reply.
    NewDelhiSEO agrees: yep. What ever is rightly yours you rank for it. Any other crappy links should be devalued and NOT
    effect a Penalty. A penalty will mean you go down further than what is rightfully yours.

    Comments on this post

    • DarrenHaye agrees : "What ever is rightly yours you rank for it" wise words.
    SEO Professionals in NewDelhi It is different. Don't believe me? Go check yourself.
  18. #25
  19. Agency SEO
    SEO Chat Mastermind (5000+ posts)

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    5,859
    Rep Power
    2691
    Originally Posted by EGOL
    I think that Google is losing their form. Facebook has them spooked. Now they are flailing.
    A saying here is the south is "ya gotta dance with the one that brung ya" Google is still a great search engine, easily the best, but they are indeed flailing. It's because they are getting so far away from their core which was: A simple, clean, uncluttered UI that does nothing but give relevant results. They are trying to be everything to everybody and it is painful to watch imo.

    Comments on this post

    • EGOL agrees : I agree... and they are trying to tell webmasters to do their work for them such as nofollow and a raft of other coding... that is handing partial control over to people who are not in their boat!
    • NewDelhiSEO agrees : lolz kp."ya gotta dance with the one that brung ya" love that.
  20. #26
  21. No Profile Picture
    Bread+Butter=SEO
    SEO Chat Discoverer (100 - 499 posts)

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    135
    Rep Power
    25

    Angry


    So basically there will be no more link building? no more making money from links? Obviously if everyone wants to go for no-follow links then there would be no point in getting links from smaller websites even if they are relevant.

    You'd naturally want to get links from top sites with huge traffic so you could at least get traffic.

    But they would still give value to follow links obviously or their system will not work. Only spammers will benefit from this, coz all legit site owners will go for no-follow links which will get them nowhere and all spammers will get normal do-follow links mostly and they'll be on top as ever...LOL
  22. #27
  23. SEO Since 97
    SEO Chat Super Genius (4500 - 4999 posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    4,747
    Rep Power
    1817
    Originally Posted by KernelPanic
    A saying here is the south is "ya gotta dance with the one that brung ya" Google is still a great search engine, easily the best, but they are indeed flailing. It's because they are getting so far away from their core which was: A simple, clean, uncluttered UI that does nothing but give relevant results. They are trying to be everything to everybody and it is painful to watch imo.
    I agree.. it was $ that did it.
  24. #28
  25. Online Business Builder
    SEO Chat Adventurer (500 - 999 posts)

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    India
    Posts
    689
    Rep Power
    364
    I just read till 17th post. after reading Egol's post I can't wait to share recent experience I have.

    We have just started Google adwords. we are in very less searched but little competitive niche. here is the complete case...

    For one of our service page, I Created a campaign and added 8 keywords .

    I can see my ads start showing after few minutes with average position of 3-5.

    It's a very new website and not any single page is optimized but even in that case it was ranking well in Paid search with good quality score. Here is the statistics.

    Keyword ->First Page CPC->Top Of Page CPC->Quality Score
    KW1->6.2->27.65 ->7
    Kw2->12.4->39.85->6
    KW3->15.75->46.95->5
    KW4->19->67.5->6
    KW5->30.15->192.25->5
    KW6->105.75->277->6
    KW7->213.75->452.5->4
    KW8->178.75->380.5->5

    This service page was not optimized hence I optimized the page. this content has been reviewed by our senior content editor. And after that I have send that content to management for approval. This procedure took one and half week since we launch PPC. once I got final approved copy I simply posted it on the landing page. I was under impression that my quality score will be even raised but a very strange thing happened.

    Here is latest scenario

    Keyword->First Page CPC->Top Of Page CPC->Quality Score
    KW1->14.95->46.2->5
    Kw2->23.3->58->4
    KW3->32.55->68->4
    KW4->36.6->90.25->4
    KW5->61.5->232->4
    KW6->157.25->313.25->5
    KW7->322.75->496.5->4
    KW8->272.5->422.25->4


    What is happening??? Is this what over-optimization penalty???? As for quality of our content, before posting any copy of content, it passed through many filters and minor silly reuse of keyword is not allowed.

    I can guess few possible reasons...

    #1
    Google is only interested in making money. why? because when I didn't used kw1 in my title and body content, Google thought it's not my main keywords hence they assign highest QS and lower bid price. as soon as I used in title you may noticed the change.

    #2
    Google algo is not working as they claim. To some extent it faces difficulty in figuring out the difference between quality and non quality content.

    #3
    On my other domain, one the main competitor is dominating the search results. I agreed they have better back-link profile but while one check their cache in text only version, all their content pulled twice. this is the real case of over optimization but still they are ranking high. this might be possible due to strong backlink profile or their seamless investment in adwords.

    Comments on this post

    • EGOL agrees : Quality score can be a "mystery". I believe that if a keyword is added to a campaign but clicked infrequently that the quality score will fall and the top of page cost per click increased.
    Last edited by chiragparekh; Mar 30th, 2012 at 03:48 AM.
  26. #29
  27. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    SEO Chat Discoverer (100 - 499 posts)

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    456
    Rep Power
    509
    Originally Posted by EGOL
    When google says.... "We are working our asses off to find the original publisher of superb content and promote him to the top of the SERPs and protect his position!.... We don't give a damn about how many links you have."
    Yeah - when Google made links "currency" in their original algo, everything became manipulation. Really, why should a high quantity of low value links matter? Why does a link (vote) made 8 years ago still matter?

    One thing I've noticed in the 10 years I've managed my e-commerce site, just because Google says "don't do that", it doesn't mean they have a way to detect or react to specific spam techniques. I think we have all seen obvious spammy sites sit above quality sites and wonder why Google hasn't done something.

    This latest update gives me some hope. I've moved up 4 positions in the last 7 days because 4 sites above me got demoted. These sites have a lot of links, most of them crap. Maybe Google finally has enough data to determine with confidence when a site has artificially boosted links.

    I agree with Egol - Google needs to promote sites with good quality signals, and the poor sites will just fall to the bottom.

    It's like caring for my front lawn - I can either waste time constantly pulling weeds, or I can fertilize the grass, make it stronger, and automatically choke out the weeds.

    Ed
    Last edited by eddyf; Mar 31st, 2012 at 02:53 PM.
  28. #30
  29. No Profile Picture
    Contributing User
    SEO Chat Explorer (0 - 99 posts)

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    42
    Rep Power
    47
    Originally Posted by eddyf
    One thing I've noticed in the 10 years I've managed my e-commerce site, just because Google says "don't do that", it doesn't mean they have a way to detect or react to specific spam techniques.
    Bingo!

    Maybe Google finally has enough data to determine with confidence when a site has artificially boosted links.
    I doubt it. I no longer have faith that Google knows what they're doing. Just look at PR. It goes to 10. Now count the sites that are as high as even 5 these days, let alone 6 or 7. Hell, most of them that were 4 or 5 are now a 2 or 3. Really? Or should I say, WTF? You can't keep changing the rules and expect any of us to know what the hell you want. It's pretty ridiculous at this point.
    I agree with Egol - Google needs to promote sites with good quality signals, and the poor sites will just fall to the bottom.
    Problem is, except for the obvious spammy sites, nobody knows what "poor" is anymore. It's all a big guessing game now. That's why, as I've stated before, the only good approach is to have several sites and optimize them all differently. That's what we're doing and it seems to be working.

    It's like caring for my front lawn - I can either waste time constantly pulling weeds, or I can fertilize the grass, make it stronger, and automatically choke out the weeds.
    Great analogy Ed. Applicable for many things in life.

Similar Threads

  1. Ranking high on chat keywords
    By southpole854 in forum Public Site Reviews
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Mar 12th, 2008, 12:55 PM
  2. See your sandboxed site's rank if it weren't sandboxed
    By dazzlindonna in forum Google Optimization
    Replies: 306
    Last Post: Feb 5th, 2006, 10:01 AM
  3. Article: new Google feature called Google Suggest
    By dirtdog1960 in forum SEO Chat Articles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Dec 12th, 2004, 01:09 AM
  4. SEO FAQs
    By Phoenix in forum SEO Chat FAQs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: Oct 25th, 2004, 03:05 PM
  5. Google Friends Newsletter December
    By Phoenix in forum Search Engine Optimization
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Dec 5th, 2003, 11:50 PM

IMN logo majestic logo threadwatch logo seochat tools logo