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    Detailed link washing proposal


    This is my idea of what I would like from a link washing system, that is, if someone offered such a service then I would buy it. A point to note about this idea is unlike other linking structures it doesn't need to hide its existence from Google. Even if Google know that such a service exists, they are not able to detect it unless they join in, and even then they would only be able to find a limited subset of wash sites. Penalisation of a detected site would have no impact on any other wash sites.

    BACKGROUND
    The concept of “link washing” came about because with the latest Jagger update Google has really started to devalue off topic links (and link farms) and it appears that relevant one way links are more important than ever. The problem is that it can be very hard to get on topic sites linking to you, or at least enough so that you can climb to the top of Mt Google. It can be particularly difficult in some areas where everyone in the area is a competitor, or if you are in niche area like me.

    LINK WASHING CONCEPT
    So what is link washing (apart from a name I made up)? The idea is to turn off topic or unrelated links into related on-topic links by passing them through a “wash” site. The basic concept is illustrated in the following example:

    Original link structure
    SITE A about travel links to SITE B about insurance (SITE B has a off-topic one way link).

    Washed link structure
    SITE A about travel links to SITE C about travel insurance which then links SITE B about insurance (SITES B & C now have on-topic and relevant one way links).

    IMPLEMENTATION
    So how to best implement a link wash? One way would be to create your own set of wash sites and get your link partners to point to these rather than your main site. The problem with this is two fold: 1. It is a huge amount of work as you need to create a mini sites for each link topic area. 2. You need to set these up on different C class IP with the domain registration in different names if you hope to hide them from Google.
    A better approach would be for somebody else to set the whole system up and you then just need to point your links to the appropriate wash sites - the downside of this approach is they will probably want money! Here is what I would want from such a service:

    Wash sites structure
    • A range of sites linking many different areas.
    • Each site would have 15 to 20 pages of human created quality content on the two topics being linked.
    • Different layouts and internal link structures so there is no page signature for Google to detect.
    • Fresh content every month or so.
    • No links from the main link washing site. No links between wash sites.
    • Each wash site on a different C class address.
    • Domains registered in different names.

    Links to the wash sites
    • For every wash site you link out to you will get an in bound one way link from another wash site in your thematic area. For example, if your site is about travel and you link to a wash site about travel insurance then you will get a link in from a wash site about travel luggage (which get its links from luggage sites).
    • All links from your site are to different wash sites than the links you get from the wash sites (ie all links are one way). For example, your travel site links to a wash site about travel and luggage and you get a link for a wash site about travel and insurance.
    • Only quality links. No links from link pages. No buried links, No nofollow links, etc.
    • Links to must be imbedded in text (~50 to 100 word) about the topics you are link out to.

    Links from the wash sites
    • No links to banned sites.
    • No more than 5 outbound links per page and 100 per site.
    • No links to any other wash site.

    Policies
    • No silly link games by members.
    • All links checked regularly.
    • People who misbehave are kicked out!

    How would it work in practice?
    Actually it should be very simple - much simpler than normal link swapping because you wouldn't need to check up on your link partners.

    You would join (pay you money if required) and say how many in bound links you want. You would then be given a set of wash sites to link to, after this you would just sit back and wait for the seemingly natural and relevant one way links to start appearing

    Other ideas
    • People who contribute quality content to a wash site get more links from the site. For example, you provide the content for a page you get an extra link from the page.
    • Different levels of wash site quality. Obliviously, we would all like the wash sites to be as good as possible but this costs money. The idea would be to have cheaper sites with little content and infrequent updates and more expensive “gold” sites with lots of good content and regular updates.
    • A co-op system where each member sets up there own wash sites and run the exchange of links between other members. In return they get in bound links from other people’s wash sites.

    Questions
    1. How much would you be willing to pay for such a service per link per month?
    2. What topics should be interlinked first?
    3. Any other thoughts or questions?

    I will update this post with any improvements or suggestions I get.
    Last edited by Ill Dilettante; Dec 7th, 2005 at 06:45 AM. Reason: update
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    What would keep the site doing the washing from being identified and penalized as a kind of link farm, causing collateral damge to everyone involved?
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    I agree w/crxvfr and then some.

    I am sure if you develop a relatively stable and safe system ppl will surely participate. I wish you the best luck with this.

    But I personally would not participate in such a system nor would I recommend it to any clients. I think this would be the next incarnation of recip. linking to a point of excess. Lets face it recip. links were not an inherently bad or destructive idea by their nature. The problem came when ppl tried to "out-smart" the se's and abused the system to the point they had no choice but make some changes to protect their own livliehood.

    I acknowledge that we all "game" the se's to some degree in this field as we manipulate content, links, structure etc. But the difference is that the vast majority try and use their crayons inside the lines ... especially when handling someone elses business. If ppl applied the same level of thoughtfulness/creativity and determination to develop strong clean links and affiliate partnerships everyones life would be much simpler.

    The more we push/hack/manipulate the se's the more they are forced to fight back and discredit the means by which we do it to protect their own insterests...

    Then we come here and cry/whine/complain the se's are evil and out to get us... lol O.k. - thats a bit dramatic and overgeneralized.. but to a great degree still holds a lot of truth.

    rant over... and sorry if I hijacked your thread, I do wish you luck despite my opinion of any "tactics" I mentioned here.
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    Originally Posted by crxvfr
    What would keep the site doing the washing from being identified and penalized as a kind of link farm, causing collateral damge to everyone involved?
    Provided it was set up correctly (ie with the constraints I described), how could Google identify that a wash site was any kind of link farm? The site would have real content, normal links in from related sites, and normal links out to other related sites. There would be no connection between any of the sites and the total number of links in and out would be limited to reasonable numbers. If Google starts devaluing a site like this then they will have to devalue all sites on the web!
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    Originally Posted by mrkryz03
    I agree w/crxvfr and then some.

    I am sure if you develop a relatively stable and safe system ppl will surely participate. I wish you the best luck with this.

    But I personally would not participate in such a system nor would I recommend it to any clients. I think this would be the next incarnation of recip. linking to a point of excess. Lets face it recip. links were not an inherently bad or destructive idea by their nature. The problem came when ppl tried to "out-smart" the se's and abused the system to the point they had no choice but make some changes to protect their own livliehood.

    I acknowledge that we all "game" the se's to some degree in this field as we manipulate content, links, structure etc. But the difference is that the vast majority try and use their crayons inside the lines ... especially when handling someone elses business. If ppl applied the same level of thoughtfulness/creativity and determination to develop strong clean links and affiliate partnerships everyones life would be much simpler.

    The more we push/hack/manipulate the se's the more they are forced to fight back and discredit the means by which we do it to protect their own insterests...

    Then we come here and cry/whine/complain the se's are evil and out to get us... lol O.k. - thats a bit dramatic and overgeneralized.. but to a great degree still holds a lot of truth.

    rant over... and sorry if I hijacked your thread, I do wish you luck despite my opinion of any "tactics" I mentioned here.
    The problem with all the current link "schemes" is once the system is found by Google then all the sites participating are penalised. The advantages of this approach is if Google finds a particular wash site AND comes to the conclusion it is a link spam site (unlikely if done right) then the worst that they can do is wipe out that one site. This is because there is no connection between that one site with any other of the wash sites. Also the wash site naturally segment out anyway so there is even more protection.

    Any way I am not proposing to do this myself- I just want someone to set it up so I can join
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    Okay so here's a scenario; Lets assume you operate Site A (travel) and B (insurance). You provide a link to Site C (travel insurance) from Site A, so C's happy cos he got a one-way link and he then links to Site B (insurance). Okay so you're then happy because your Site B then got a one-way link too! Okay Site A loses out cos it didn't get a link, but that's part of the sacrifce for getting a one-way link to site C.

    Now pleeeeeeease can you explain how this is different from 3 way linking? Please! Or failing that, provide a scenario that you think is not 3 way linking.

    Comments on this post

    • mrkryz03 agrees : It isnt any differnt... remove the theme concept and its still the same.
    Last edited by big-bad-burrow; Dec 6th, 2005 at 08:01 PM.
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    http://forums.seochat.com/google-optimization-7/thematic-links-61617.html

    If you refer back to the above for the general idea think of it in a more global or macro way. The means to detect are not by the way most ppl use a system like this... it is in the way that nearly all schemes get caught.. when greed takes a front seat and someone exploits the system. But in a simpler approach... completely forget about the principle of themes altogether:

    A->B
    A->C
    C->B

    D->E
    D->F
    F->E

    G->H
    G->I
    I->H

    Do this several million times and you will quickly build a pattern that will beg to be investigated eventually and at that point you have problems....


    I think the classic 3 Stooges Link Algorithm would be most effective:

    B->A->BAY
    B->E->BEE

    B->I->BICKY->BYE->B->O->BO

    BICKY->BYE->BO->B->U->B

    BICKY->BYE->BI->BO->BU



    OK its been a long day and I'm feeling a lil fickle... lol

    Curious if anyone else gets the joke or am I over due for a vacation
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    Originally Posted by big-bad-burrow
    Okay so here's a scenario; Lets assume you operate Site A (travel) and B (insurance). You provide a link to Site C (travel insurance) from Site A, so C's happy cos he got a one-way link and he then links to Site B (insurance). Okay so you're then happy because your Site B then got a one-way link too! Okay Site A loses out cos it didn't get a link, but that's part of the sacrifce for getting a one-way link to site C.

    Now pleeeeeeease can you explain how this is different from 3 way linking? Please! Or failing that, provide a scenario that you think is not 3 way linking.
    The way it works out is that SITE A get a link from another wash site (SITE D) about travel luggage which gets a link from SITE E about luggage. Basically everyone gets a link in from a different wash site for every wash site they link out to. Provide this is done correctly it would be impossible for Google to detect.

    With this structure you could imagine that eventually any two site will link up, but after all any two sites currently do link up if you follow the links far enough. I don't think this is a problem as that is what the web is all about!

    I think I will update the description to make this point more clear.
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    Originally Posted by mrkryz03
    http://forums.seochat.com/google-optimization-7/thematic-links-61617.html

    If you refer back to the above for the general idea think of it in a more global or macro way. The means to detect are not by the way most ppl use a system like this... it is in the way that nearly all schemes get caught.. when greed takes a front seat and someone exploits the system. But in a simpler approach... completely forget about the principle of themes altogether:

    A->B
    A->C
    C->B

    D->E
    D->F
    F->E

    G->H
    G->I
    I->H

    Do this several million times and you will quickly build a pattern that will beg to be investigated eventually and at that point you have problems....


    I think the classic 3 Stooges Link Algorithm would be most effective:

    B->A->BAY
    B->E->BEE

    B->I->BICKY->BYE->B->O->BO

    BICKY->BYE->BO->B->U->B

    BICKY->BYE->BI->BO->BU



    OK its been a long day and I'm feeling a lil fickle... lol

    Curious if anyone else gets the joke or am I over due for a vacation
    I agree that the wash link structure has to be carefully managed so as not to become a thicket of inter-linked sites. This is a problem with any linking structure, even totally organic structures. Provided some care was taken, it would not be too difficult to ensure that the inevitable back links involve a long number of link steps and hence look just like natural back links.
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    Ofcourse it *could* but to what level of complexity...?

    And regardless of the level of complexity there is one key point that is invaluable...

    G,Y!,MSN take their business seriously.. Quite literally BILLIONS of dollars are at stake for them.

    So the notion that they do not actively investigate idustry leading forums/blogs etc for the "greatest new schemes" is pretty naive.

    The notion they do not actively purchase subscriptions/memberships/software we all use and evaluate the potential collateral damage they may incur by their use is even more naive.

    Look at the timing of my review of RankAttack and once it was posted here/SeoMoz/Matt C's blog it took all of 30 days for the SE's to start tweaking the algo's to immunize their results. Wordtracker posted the fix in less then 7 days in reply from when they got notice...

    If you really want a successful way of beating the se's for the short term - keep it to yourself - encode it - encrypt it - publish the service to a small # of ppl at a high cost and collect enough cash to retire. Posting it publicly online effectively digs the hole and buries any "blackhat" idea before it see's deployment.

    -Incidently the most effective blackhat *current* techniques will be found nowhere online let alone sold as a public service until its bubble is about to burst.
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    Originally Posted by mrkryz03
    Ofcourse it *could* but to what level of complexity...?

    And regardless of the level of complexity there is one key point that is invaluable...

    G,Y!,MSN take their business seriously.. Quite literally BILLIONS of dollars are at stake for them.

    So the notion that they do not actively investigate idustry leading forums/blogs etc for the "greatest new schemes" is pretty naive.

    The notion they do not actively purchase subscriptions/memberships/software we all use and evaluate the potential collateral damage they may incur by their use is even more naive.

    Look at the timing of my review of RankAttack and once it was posted here/SeoMoz/Matt C's blog it took all of 30 days for the SE's to start tweaking the algo's to immunize their results. Wordtracker posted the fix in less then 7 days in reply from when they got notice...

    If you really want a successful way of beating the se's for the short term - keep it to yourself - encode it - encrypt it - publish the service to a small # of ppl at a high cost and collect enough cash to retire. Posting it publicly online effectively digs the hole and buries any "blackhat" idea before it see's deployment.

    -Incidently the most effective blackhat *current* techniques will be found nowhere online let alone sold as a public service until its bubble is about to burst.
    I don't disagree with anything you say which is why I have never joined any link scheme before. This idea is different because even if Google knows about it there is nothing they can do about it as each theme section is walled off from the others. Even if Google buy there way into one area they would not be able to see the other sites- the only person who would know would be the person who set it up. The only way I can see to find the other theme sites would be to buy out (or off) the organiser - now that is a good business plan

    One final comment - it doesn't matter if google knows about the idea, it only matters if they are part of the scheme. Somebody else could go out there and set this up right now and if they don't tell me I would never know it existed as there is no way of finding it.
    Last edited by Ill Dilettante; Dec 6th, 2005 at 10:52 PM.
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    Interesting idea, but I think it is more work than you might be thinking to make this work well with quality sites (it would be sinch with crap sites, but probably still worthless). personally, I think if you spent the same time and effort creating great content and tools, you could probably get better one way links without the linking "scheme". Just a thought.

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    Originally Posted by Ill Dilettante
    The way it works out is that SITE A get a link from another wash site (SITE D) about travel luggage which gets a link from SITE E about luggage. Basically everyone gets a link in from a different wash site for every wash site they link out to. Provide this is done correctly it would be impossible for Google to detect.
    Oh right, so now there's 5 sites?! I just think the whole concept is just so overly complex that it'll never catch on. Sorry to rain on your parade.

    Plus I think the whole 'link exchange' idea is a dying one. I mean if you still have a links page with little content, but with 50 outgoing links it's still gonna look suspect and those links aren't gonna be worth squat.

    BBB
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    Originally Posted by big-bad-burrow
    Oh right, so now there's 5 sites?! I just think the whole concept is just so overly complex that it'll never catch on. Sorry to rain on your parade.

    Plus I think the whole 'link exchange' idea is a dying one. I mean if you still have a links page with little content, but with 50 outgoing links it's still gonna look suspect and those links aren't gonna be worth squat.

    BBB
    BBB there would be way more than 5 sites - 5 is just the bare minimum.

    I agree that it is complicated, but only for the person setting the structure up, for the end user it would be a matter of basically joining, asking for how many link you want, being provided with a set of sites to link to and sitting back and waiting for the relevant incoming links to come naturally It is actually much simpler than exchanging links because you would not have to keep an eye on your link partners since all you incoming links are from the wash sites. Thanks for bring this up though - I will add this to the description.

    I agree with you about links pages which is why I specified that the your links out to the wash pages had to be quality links from a text block on topic.

    Once again I don't want to set this up, I want some else to set this up for me - I am just providing the idea for a great business
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    Originally Posted by brandall
    Interesting idea, but I think it is more work than you might be thinking to make this work well with quality sites (it would be sinch with crap sites, but probably still worthless). personally, I think if you spent the same time and effort creating great content and tools, you could probably get better one way links without the linking "scheme". Just a thought.
    Brandall it depends on the area. In some areas you could add War & Peace 2005 and nobody would link to you. In my area people don't link, most of the pages haven't been updated since 1996 (a slight exaggeration ), and all my competitors are semi-commercial sites on .edu sites with a trillion back links. While I have been trying hard I just can't any more relevant back links - I have been stuck with the same number for about the last three months. I could go out an collect a whole heap of irrelevant links, but what is the point

    Any way it fun thinking about something new and try to find the flaws in the idea.
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